There are so many drummers I love to bits and sadly not many drummers hold them in as high regard as I do. Namley Charlie Adams (Yanni) he has the tightest rythmim and uncanny groove. He is so interesting to watch and I've never knowen any other drummers that could incorporate big-band drumming into New Age Classical. Rod Morgenstein for alot of the same reasons he even makes 80's cheese sound intellectual. Last but my no means Tony Oxley, the guy must be touching 80 and although playing all his life like no other he's as good as unheard of.
Although many of my heros, first and foremost Neil Peart owe a large debt of their career to Buddy Rich,I always find him incredibly clinical to watch and is severly over rated. Give me Max Roach or Gene Krupa over Buddy Rich any day of the week.
Lars Ulrich crap drummer, crap band, @ best he's a poor imitation of Animal.
Back to underrated Roger Taylor doesnt seem to get as much aclaim for his playing and style as his career/legacy with Queen. Very sad:( Jeremy Colson I also admire. He has quite an intricate style for someone who comes of a punk backround,and good solid back-beats that keeps all the guitar wankers he plays with in check, nice attitude enthusiasim and sense of humour from watching his interviews on youtube.
I think Lars was good in his day, (in the same way Ringo starr was) i thought by justice for all he had improved a hell of alot since kill em all. But he did seem to soften up during 90s and prob never practiced lol. There are elements to his playing I like though.
Besides what does he give a fuck, he's part of one of the most influential bands ever ! How many of us average musicans can say that ! id bet he would admit he's over rated (whilst selling arenas and cruising around like a cocky shite ! would you care?)
Its like comparing paul gilbert and van halen, one influenced the other yet you could argue if we are just talking technique and not record sales gilbert cleans the board.
I mean dave lombardo seems over rated- if hes not belting out 16ths on a double bass and a few nice tom rolls i bet hes fucked. But back in the day it would have been new - just like lars.
I agree with the travis barker comment ! hes brill and def having heard and seen daniel adair from nickelback live , that guy has some serious chops as they say and anyone who thinks otherwise should check out his drum solos or note the fact he also plays in a jazz fusion band aswell which shows some versataille nature
Other than that Marco Minneman - Savage and of course the likes of Mike mangini and all those guys.
Paul Bostaph I always thought he was class, and wayyy better than lombardo.
The guy from soilwork is never mentioned enough ! Stalemate of stabbing the drama - insane.
One drummer I love is Clune who used to play with David Gray, but you never hear anything about him. But he's a great drummer to watch live - great chops, and flamboyant personality and showman. He's very tight, plays for the song, and sings too! Of course there are lots of drummers much better than him, but I mention him only as my example of under-rated drummer. In terms of over-rated I'll mention Ringo Starr. There are so many better drummers much more worthy of attention. I'll also agree with whoever mentioned Thomas Lang. OK, he's got amazing technique and co-ordinition, but I'm much more interested in drummers who power a band, whereas drummers like Lang seem to lock themselves away for hours to develope crazy skills just for the sheer hell of it. It's great seeing what he can do, but after a while it's like "so what, lets go watch a live band."
over rated: i'd say ringo and generally a lot of metal drummers. yes, you can make your feet go really fast, bu there is more to making music than that, however not many of them can see that. lars ulrich is an example.
under rated: i gonna say tre cool, some of the parts he comes up with for songs are excellent, even if they are fairly basic.
Ringo gets far too much abuse. He served the songs well, which really is what a drummer should be doing. Obviously he wasn't amazing, but I do love me some Ringo.
Lars is incredibly overrated. And I could swear when I saw them live he went off a few times. That or his idea of a suitable rhythm is just f*cking ridiculously bad. I know everyone loves him, but I think Keith Moon is pretty overrated too.
I'm not much of a Clem Burke fan. Heard a story about the Ramones in which they had him for one gig but it was a distaster as he couldn't keep up.
I'm sure Lars Ulrich is mortified that a few people on some Northern Irish website find his drumming over-rated, he's probably sitting in a gigantic mansion weeping into his golden check-book whilst guzzling several litres of champagne and fried condor eggs.
im sure everybody else on this forum is going to stop dicussing overrated drummers, on a thread made to talk about such a thing, because some guy is trying to be ficisious. why bother commenting if your not interested? grow up.
I think what the case of Moon shows is that there's much more to be being a great band member and musician than being technically brilliant on drums. Personality - amongst other things - goes a long way, and other people are drawn to those who have a bit of personality. I would say the same for Nicko McBrain, he's a good drummer, though not amazingly gloriously wonderful, and yet the larger than life personna seems to catapult him somewhat in the same way Moon's did.
Lars should have stuck to tennis. Max Weinberg Travis Barker Tre Cool & Daniel Adair are all prime examples of talented drummers in pish bands. Maybe Im being biased because rush are my favourite band but I fail to comprehend that of all the words to describe Neil Peart, "boring" could be said in the same breath. Ive never heard as much balderdash in all my life as Thomas Lang being overrated, I've got his signature crash and even when I show it to other drummers they tell me theyve never heard of him. Ringo got more exciting in his playing as the beatles went on, best example the drumming in "Tomorrow Never Knows", in that example alone he is underrated, tho he always struck me as braindead. Also someone enlighten me about Buddy Rich. As for underrated I should also mention Alan White (not the one of Oasis) but latterday Yes, I saw him play with Yes in 2009 he was a gem, with a jazz approach. Also Will Calhoun, Will Kennedy and Gilson Lavis deserve a mention since nobody elese is likley to
A fine drummer and an incredible musician. It took balls-of-steel to do what he did, when he did it - abandon traditional accompaniment and timekeeping on drumkit. He ignored the criticism, stuck to his guns and forged a whole new approach to 'drumming'. Kudos.
[quote:4d213301e3] Neil Peart [/quote:4d213301e3]
Severely overrated, though I blame Metallica fans and rock journo's for that one, not other drummers.
[b:4d213301e3]Every[/b:4d213301e3] jazz-drummer is inherently indebted to him, a legend.
Possibly the best drummer* listed here - mindblowing technique, coordination and dexterity coupled with an incredible grasp of rhythmic-theory. To have even conceived the 'coordination matrix' he teaches in [i:4d213301e3]Creative Coordination[/i:4d213301e3] guarantees him a place in the drumming 'Hall of Fame', a stroke of pure genius.
* - A great instrumentalist and a great musician aren't always one and the same.
Apparently Lennon was once asked in an interview - "Do you think Ringo is one of the best drummers in the world?", to which he laughed and replied - "Ringo isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles!"
Without doubt the right drummer for Zep, though seriously overrated as a stand-alone drummer. Compared to some of his contemporaries (Tony Williams, Jack DeJohnette, Lenny White, Steve Gadd, etc.) he could hardly even be described as 'great'.
Same story - the right drummer for The Who*, but judged on the merits of his drumming alone - a total fucking joke. As sloppy as a fresh puddle a' pig-shit, and completely clueless as to the basics and standards of kit drumming. The very fact that he considered hi-hats to be pointless is proof enough that he didn't have a fuckin' baldy, he was just having a laugh, end-of.
* - 'Live at Leeds' is still one of my fav live rock albums.
I see a few more names listed above, though they're drummers that I don't have an opinion on and/or don't give a fuck about.
Lesser-known contemporary drummers that I'd recommend checking-out :
[quote:f1d53aeb66]Same story - the right drummer for The Who*, but judged on the merits of his drumming alone - a total fucking joke. As sloppy as a fresh puddle a' pig-shit, and completely clueless as to the basics and standards of kit drumming. The very fact that he considered hi-hats to be pointless is proof enough that he didn't have a fuckin' baldy, he was just having a laugh, end-of.
* - 'Live at Leeds' is still one of my fav live rock albums.
Contained within that paragraph is all off the wrongness anyone has ever spoken about music. If you like lisyening to it, then you cannot criticise it on the basis of technique. It's good or bad, not correct or incorrect. If Moon sounds good, then his technique is correct. QED
Brian Downey is and always has been severely under-rated. Lovely swing to his playing, not common in rock drummers.
Lars can't be over-rated as I don't know anybody that rates him, including himself. He's always been very honest about his ability and that's to be admired.
Tommy Aldridge is shockingly bad. I always thought he was ok until I learned that Lee Kerslake was the actual drummer on Diary Of A Madman and Tommy and Rudy, incorrectly credited. No touch, no feel, nothing.
[quote:bd60bba801]Ringo got more exciting in his playing as the beatles went on[/quote:bd60bba801]
Yes, when they stopped playing live and started experimenting with overdubs. Funny that...
Ad for Keith Moon, no one else has made the drums more exciting. Technique has fuck all to do with it, it's all about style. "Amazing Journey" and "Go to the Mirror" on Live At Leeds have style that no one else has. And although his pacing was unbelievabbly sloppy, on that album himself and Townshend are tight as fuck. And then there's that bit on "Christmas" where he always seems to fall behind, and then you see the video clip and realise it's because he's jumping six foot into the air. It's a masterclass in tight, exciting, changeable drumming. But maybe you'd rather watch John Bonham playing fucking Kashmir, the most boring example of technically spot on drumming ever.
just love his style, he's got serious groove and great solos if you honestly don't like him fair enough but the majority of music lovers would have him in there top 5 drummers of all time so there no argument really.
Nature Boy can i get drumming lessons of you cause your always on the button about every musical subject, I don't claim to know everything about music or drumming either but I suppose all these drumming top 10's are all wrong and your right because???? am not trying to be dick am just making a point that there's a slight chance you might be wrong.
Anto you are wrong. Moon was designer bad. Loud and boistrous unstage and off but it suited the whos' music and the lifestyle that accompanied it. Such is what has carried through in punk. Ok the who aint or never were punk but I doubt punk would have even been a fad if the who ? never existed.
[quote:0631004ddd]Maybe Im being biased because rush are my favourite band but I fail to comprehend that of all the words to describe Neil Peart, "boring" could be said in the same breath.[/quote:0631004ddd]
I mean yeah Pearts great and all, I appreciate what he's done in music and in drumming but I don't know, there's something about his style that I'm not fond of.
If it's prog drumming I enjoy watching Portnoy - Could be that he's a mad bastard lol.
[quote:0631004ddd]Ive never heard as much balderdash in all my life as Thomas Lang being overrated, I've got his signature crash and even when I show it to other drummers they tell me theyve never heard of him.[/quote:0631004ddd]
Great technique, dexterity, coordination & Crazy understanding and knowledge of rhythmic theory (as someone has mentioned) but I personally think He's like a drum machine - Can play whatever the heck you want him to play and perfectly in time but there's no feel to it.
[quote:0631004ddd]Brian Downey is and always has been severely under-rated. Lovely swing to his playing, not common in rock drummers.[/quote:0631004ddd]
Anyone who says John Bonham is in anyway overrated is inherently and irrevocably wrong. Always and forever. Just listen to the opening groove of When The Levee Breaks. It's fecking gargantuan! The man was a leviathan behind the kit. And Zep wouldn't be half the band they were without him.
I wouldn't say he's underrated but Stewart Copeland is just out of this world. I've been left genuinely speechless at some of the curve balls he throws in to both recorded material and live. I agree with the comments about Travis Barker too, phenomenal drummer.
The best drummers that I've ever seen live would be Dave Turncrantz of Russian Circles (saw the band with These Arms Are Snakes and ASIWYFA in the Black Box years ago and was stunned at what this guy could do with such a minimal kit); Gavin Harrison of Porcupine Tree (a flawless percussionist, and displays unparalleled technicality in a way that accentuates rather than detracts from the feel and groove of the music which is rare) and Taylor Hawkins of Foo Fighters (always thought this guy was great but seeing him perform live at Oxegen this year was an inspiring experience).
There's a story about Larry Mullen I read via [url=http://www.popbitch.com/home/2011/04/28/if-your-wired-your-fired/]popbitch[/url] via [url=http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/25/110425fa_fact_bilger?currentPage=all]The New Yorker[/url] that Brian Eno told about his accuracy of timing and how he was able to hear that a click track was 6 milliseconds out and refused to play over it.
" Brian Eno told a story about U2 drummer, Larry
Mullen. When he was producing All That You
Can't Leave Behind Eno gave
Mullen a click track (computer generated
beat) to play drums over, as a way of keeping
everything in synch. Mullen swore the click
track wasn't right, and refused to play
over it. Eventually Eno adjusted it -
but just to humour the drummer, as he knew
it couldn't be at fault. Except he later
found Mullen was right. The click was off
- by six milliseconds! "The thing is," said Eno,
"when we were adjusting it I once had it two
milliseconds to the wrong side of the beat,
and he said, 'No, you’ve got to come back a
bit.' Which I think is absolutely staggering."
Look, it's simple. Where John Bonham goes Boomboomboom/ bam/ boomboomboom/ bam Keith Moon goes Boomboomboodoom/ badaddadadamBam/ bodoomdoombodoombamtish/ badaddledadamboomboomboom, bududududududum.
One of those is interesting to listen to, the other's boring to listen to. You might well like the boring bit, but that's possibly because of some personality defect.
And When the Levee Breaks is absolutely typical, I'm sorry but I really don'rt sdee anything great about that whatsoever. I'm not being a dick but I really really could do that with one hand. Keep the hi hat going with the foot asnd it literally just goes boomboom/ bam/ boom boom/ bam. So fucking what?
Look it's simple to contrast - listen to the first few seconds of this.
Was rubbishing my and other's posts about John Bonham's ability and then responding with a vid of Dexys Midnight Runners some sort of satirical device :lol: ?
Other underrated drummers that I think deserve mentions are:
Bill Ward of Black Sabbath (one of my favourite drummers of all time)
Mitch Mitchell of The Jimi Hendrix Experience
Questlove of The Roots
Andy Ward of Camel
Igor Cavalera of Sepultura etc
Nicko McBrain of Iron Maiden (the later albums in particular)
Dave Lombardo of Slayer (for his sheer unrelenting and raw energy)
Chad Smith of RHCP
Matt Cameron of Soundgarden
Polar Bear/Acoustic Ladyland may well be among the leading proponents of British Nu-Jazz, but Seb Rochford certainly can't be held up as a blindingly obvious example of great drumming, unless of course you don't have a fuckin' clue what actually constitutes great drumming.
It's hardly proof like, but: "Seb won the BBC Jazz Award for best newcomer in 2004, and has been nominated as best musician in 2006. He has also been nominated for the Mercury Prize in 2005 and 2007."
I'm sure you're aware of this, but it does call into question the strength of your accusation.
Anyway, you're very sure of yourself and over confidence is always telling. I think the discussion above establishes that, as Chi-Lite put it, "there's no accounting for taste". Translated, (as you're the only person really not getting this) there are no objective measures for what makes a musician good/great. Having said that, I accept the caveat that you (not you exclusively, I mean musicians) can make an educated guess.
That's not really the same as 'knowing' though, which, going by your comments, you apparently purport to do. But if you knew as much as you think you do, then you would know what a ridiculous position it is to pretend you have some monopoly on what is "true" about music. That's incredibly naïve, i.e. you've no fucking clue. You can watch all the academics in the world pontificating on music theory and performance and so on all you like, but that doesn’t mean you 'really' understand its effects or intentions or inherent attributes better than anyone else.
I think your man Seb is class, a) because he appears very skillful, which seems to be supported and b) because I find his drumming moving, entertaining, challenging and so on compared to loads of other quality drummers.
I'm not an 'expert', granted, but it's hardly not having a fucking clue, now, is it. Only a dick would say that. Ergo…
Sick of this shit about my stlye,you mutherfuckers are surplus to requirement,sitting round bitch'n!
Doing things the way you see it, going by your own heart and soul, that is pure artistic integrity. Whatever the hair is six or sixty inches long, the eyes have make-up or not, the riffs are in 'E' or 'F' sharp, the amps are Marshall or not, all those things don't matter if you are doing it for the right reason, which to me means doing it for yourself!”
The 'not-giving-a-fuck' meter is as far into the red-zone as ever before!
“Dear 'The Kids', Don't waste your precious holiday time sittin arround all this bullshit x lies, GO FUCK SHIT UP!! Lots 'O' Love. P.S. Happy whatever!”
my condor eggs are probably stone cold now....STONE COLD CRAZY YA KNOW YEAAAAAAAAAAA
It's Kevin Rowland solo actually, just thought you should all know how class it is.
I like Mitch Mitchell, but it's a well known fact that he was known around London as a straight blues player until he heard Keith Moon, and then he completely changed his style. Google it. Having done so, he then had far more style than John Bonham.
I was waiting on the guy from polar bear to do something. He didn't.
[quote:336dfa42e8] I think the discussion above establishes that, as Chi-Lite put it, "there's no accounting for taste"[/quote:336dfa42e8]
Now we've established that, this is just one more reason why "most overrated/underrated <people>" are never has "potential for a decent conversation" (in the words of George's Father)...
But can we all at least agree that a certain Castlewellan based drummer is underrated?
Your previous post read like a piece of well polished scrap, and you had the gall to call me a "pseudo-intellectual" :lol: x10
Quite the wordsmith, kudos. If your opinions on music matched your vocabulary you'd be flying, they don't.
Some men know motors,
Some men know footie,
Some men know music.
If you actually believe that [b:fc93faa30e]any[/b:fc93faa30e] of the above claims I made are untrue then feel free to contest anyone of them if you feel you know better, or alternatively you can dodge the fine detail and continue ro invest yourself in nonsense like...
[quote:fc93faa30e]there are no objective measures for what makes a musician good/great[/quote:fc93faa30e]
All musicians are not equal, neither are all opinions, I didn't think you of all 'fuders could be as foolish as to suggest so.
Red returned, as much as I appreciate Portnoy, Peart is his biggest or one of his biggest influences so, it is hypocritical and uneducated to prefare Portnoy over Peart, but not the other way round. Same goes with Primus I've friends who love primus and despise rush but, they seem to forget how much of an inspiration rush were to primus. They forget that Primus made a dogs dinner of YYZ and rush had to write it in the first instance, so they're not really proper primus fans
[quote:0ad71a37fd]Some men know motors,
Some men know footie,
Some men know music.[/quote:0ad71a37fd]
Ok. See, this is a perfect demonstration of exactly what you're not getting. I'll explain.
Some men know motors/football - True, but it's entirely irrelevant to the point of this thread. We're not asking who knows the most, it doesn't matter who knows the most. The question is one of aesthetic value, which is entirely different.
Ask two men a series of questions about football statistics or car performance, you'll get an empirical answer of who knows the most. Easy. Ask two men about which car is the most beautiful, or which moment in football was the most exciting, enrapturing or satisfying, it's unlikely you'll get the same answer. Why? Because these concepts are not objective, they are subjective i.e. dependant on experience and perspective.
This is the problem.
Now that doesn't mean you might not have some insight on what qualities are important in a good musician or drummer, much in the same way a man who knows motors would expect that a beautiful car would probably have sleek lines or proportional body work, or that a man knowledgeable about football would expect a great football moment to have a climactic event or a pivotal role in the football sphere. What it does mean is that no one has a monopoly on the 'truth' of that matter, because there isn't one to have. To suggest so is naive.
You can measure and test skill, but not the ephemeral subjective qualities that are intrinsic to what makes a musician great or good. I mean, you can have an educated guess...
Basicaly, if you can't be arsed readin the above (I wouldn't blame you), all I'm saying is why are you being so disrespectful of everyone elses opionion and being such a dick about it? They're not all idiots. Although to be fair, some of them are.
[quote:b071981eaa]Red returned, as much as I appreciate Portnoy, Peart is his biggest or one of his biggest influences so, it is hypocritical and uneducated to prefare Portnoy over Peart, but not the other way round.[/quote:b071981eaa]
I do know that Peart was one of Portnoys influences but he wasn't his only influence. So, I wouldn't say it's hypocritical or uneducated, considering that they're 2 completely different people with 2 different influences and drumming backgrounds.
I didn't say Portnoy was better. I prefer watching Portnoy. Could be that he actually appears to be enjoying what he's playing.
Peart is great, like I said, but Portnoy appears to have a more wacky personality which I enjoy watching over Pearts grumpy lookin' bake.
You're all over the place now. Look, your opinion is not better than everyone else's cause you've watched a few lectures. And even if it were (which it isn't), you don't have to be such a dick about it.
Do I have to spell it out? C.L.I.M.B O.U.T O.F. Y.O.U.R. O.W.N. A.R.S.E., P.L.E.A.S.E.
Franz Liszt was a much better pianist/composer than Elton John.
...it can be considered to be no more than an 'educated guess'?!
no, it can be considered no more than your [i:cce09dc8d2]opinion[/i:cce09dc8d2].
I mean, I happen to think classical music is a load of old wank, but 'Rocket Man' isn't a bad tune.
doesn't make me right, or wrong, or smarter, or better than you though:lol: .
Your first attempt was much funnier, the edit did it no justice. Though since you ask -
"Liszt became renowned throughout Europe during the nineteenth century for his great, virtuosic skill as a performer. He was said by his contemporaries to have been the most technically-advanced pianist of his age and perhaps the greatest pianist of all time."
Jesus Christ lol! All this slagging each other off over who's the best drummer? Seriously, this is playground stuff! Come on, what age are you lot lol? For the record; Stewart Copeland, Mark Brezezicki (Big Country) & Steve Grantley (SLF/The Alarm) are probably among the best, yet most under-rated drummers. How many of all the drummers you lot have mentioned have actually got to play along-side one of their biggest influences or heroes at a Wembley Stadium concert in front of millions on tv & were also one of the very first Western musicians to play behind the old Iron Curtain in Moscow & who's music helped encourage the end of the Cold War between the old Soviet Union & the West & bring us peace in our time?
I'm a guitarist and as such focus more on the guitars in songs than on drums, but the odd drummer really does stand out sometimes and for me when the drums break through my focus on the guitars it's a nice realisation of how effective the percussion can be without my even realising it at first listen.
I saw Thin Lizzy at the Waterfront and reviewed the gig, but was given less than excellent seats high above the stage but very close along the right hand side. The sound wasnt great and the view wasn't either, but the absolute highlight of the night was the perfect view of Downey. The way he floated around the kit was a joy to behold, everything looked so effortless and natural, yet sounded complex and interesting without deviating from the feel of the song. I'm also told that he often plays shuffles, which is apparantly all the more difficult given that alot of Lizzy stuff is quite quick.
Beyond that Roger Johnson came to my attention mainly after watching the DVD of the Queen at Wembley 86 gig. That was an education both of musical performance and seeing how excellent his drumming was. And although I can't remember his name the drummer from Stone Sour is pretty excellent too, but I'm not sure if he's underrated at all. The DVD with the album which was the making of the album had clips of his drumming and it was nothing short of phenomenal.
Locally I'd say John Gillen from Nocturn is one of the most impressive drummers I've seen live. Loads of style and rhythm and knows how to stand out without taking anything away from the overall song.
That said, I'm a guitarist and so probably don't have a clue what I'm talking about... I just know what I like and what I don't....
I agree with a lot of the above. However we seem to have forgotten the father of modern drumming, the man who made drumming beyond simple time keeping.... The late great elvin jones, a true visionary of music, before him drummers did nothing but a job, he was the man who turned a kit into an instrument, and also the man who emphasised tuning, could make an 18" bass sound like a 24"
I think as well a lot of technical drummers underestimate steve Jordan, saw him on stage with Mayer, didn't do a fill for 4 songs BUT couldn't keep my eyes off him, a master of groove drumming, something sorely missed, it ain't about BPM, 1 sexy snare hit is worth a thousand thrashed out on a roll......
That being said I love Lang peart and portnoy, but for very different reasons, oh and the rev was tidy as well,
To elaborate on Nick Menza being underrated, he was not a run of the mill metal drummer, specially when it came to rust in peace. Not many metal drummers used chimes.He had a big personality and I had the pleasure of seeing him live back in '95. First drummer I seen hold the sticks upside down. The musicianship in megadeth around that time was second to none, they make metallica sound like the beatles in comparison. The best thing metallica ever did was fire Dave Mustaine
Not enough room to post it here, but I would take the comments from the top performers in the field over some dude named "Chi Lite" regarding Bonham's ability. Simply google any of the following names and add "talks about John Bonham," and you will get my drift: Matt Cameron, Ilan Rubin, Chad Smith, Dave Lombardo, Mike Portnoy, Stewart Copeland, Cozy Powell all regard him in the highest manner. Even Jon Hisemann stated that he was a fan. By the way, not all songs are the same, ever listen to Achilles Last Stand? Boring drum-work....I think NOT.