After reading a few BBC articles last night about the recent trouble in North Belfast, i couldn't shake the compulsion to [url=http://buddhasguitartech.blogspot.com/2010/07/i-dont-know-if-saddened-is-right-word.html]write something about it[/url].
Also, i know it's not exactly a bold, world-changing move, but if there's anyone else out there interested in joining a facebook group, try "[url=http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=138651539487924&ref=ts]I Vow To Make Peace[/url]" and join up.
The page/group/whatever is in its embryonic stage. Perhaps a few people banded together can make some sort of different approach to putting to rest the demons of our collective past. It would be nice to hear from people who try to make a difference, however small, perhaps share stories, ideas, experiences, whatever.
There's no hidden pitch, nothing to buy, nothing to sell, no glory, no fame, just a page.
All that shit was going on at the top of my street and I can tell you there was very little of 'the struggle' about it. Just a bunch of bored teenage hoods with an excuse to create havoc. If there was a politically aware one among them I'll stick pins in my eyes.
They're gathering at the top of the street again now and the helicopter is out. Wankers the lot of them.
PS I got bawned from the Grauniad CiF today talking about this, on some stupid article about how the reason for the riots was "poverty".
Such a shame. I mean I even managed to reference Chakka Kahn in a bit about Ulster Scotch.
[quote:1f3b34be97]"There's nahin' ta do round here"[/quote:1f3b34be97]
Well, the wee fucker does have a point. Although the obvious answer to this problem would be to go somewhere else every once and a while where there [i:1f3b34be97]is [/i:1f3b34be97]something to do. I suggest going to the odd concert and drinking in Katy Daly's, maybe join a band. Worked for me, but then again I'm a wee fruit.
[quote:a004083359="Leif Bodnarchuk"]I saw a guy on the news, who didn't want to be identified (so I really saw his back) but he basically said that he felt like a second class citizen. [/quote:a004083359]
I think that was the same boy. After complaining that there was nahin' ta do, he started gurning about feeling like a second-class citizen. Fact is, all working-class (and non-working-class) people feel like that, Catholic or Protestant. And that wee shit is a long way below second-class in my book.
One thing I have to concede though is that the Twelfth can make Catholics feel that the state discriminates against them. I know I'm inviting controversy here, but I've seen this from both sides and I know what I'm talking about. The Twelfth is grand when you're a participant, but it must be pretty depressing to be confined by the police while the "other" community parades up the middle of your street. And it doesn't seem quite equitable that the major public holiday of the Summer is focused on the Protestant celebration of victory over Catholicism.
[quote:a004083359="feline1"]I even managed to reference Chakka Kahn in a bit about Ulster Scotch.[/quote:a004083359]
The hallmark of a true creative.
[quote:b293f2e887]And it doesn't seem quite equitable that the major public holiday of the Summer is focused on the Protestant celebration of victory over Catholicism.[/quote:b293f2e887]
i can see that. My hope is that people can change the way they see things and label them. We can't take too many holidays i suppose, so there's little chance of the construction industry taking two weeks off for a 'catholic' thing.
Whatever our past, the fact remains that right now, there is no reason to fight the way we do. The Battle of the Boyne is history and has shaped us, just like WWII. Personally, i like to think that when it comes to celebrating the end of WWII, we are celebrating the end of a war, not reveling in the defeat of an enemy.
If injustices and discrimination still exist today in NI, chucking stuff at a well-disciplined line of riot cops (who showed exceptional control in the footage i've seen) will only draw scorn from other civilized people. My feeling is that you could at least have a dialogue with the guys who simply sat down in the way.
"there's nothing to do round here!"
wee shits....what he probably meant was there's nothing around there where you can drink cheap WKD, get off yer tits on methadrone, act like a complete prick and then have a digging match with each other with no fear of retribution:evil: .
oh no, hold on...I forgot about the Crumlin Star.
Yeah you know, it's the idea that there is nothing to do which kinda baffles me. There are lots of things to do. i think some people expect 'things to do' to be delivered to their door step with no effort. How do you convince someone to get out of their environment and live a little?
[i:36eb57c14b]My feeling is that you could at least have a dialogue with the guys who simply sat down in the way.[/i:36eb57c14b]
[i:36eb57c14b]My[/i:36eb57c14b] feeling is that they're a bunch of spidey tracksuited sectarian vermin, a mirror-image version of the spidey tracksuited sectarian vermin they're protesting against.The other side of the Norn Iron ugly coin, if you will.
Fuck the lot of them, they're worthless trash and not worth bothering with.
not bothering with people can lead to their feeling of being further disenfranchised, which results in deeper separation and inevitably, further clashes of culture. you have to engage people in order to come to an agreement, give them a voice, listen to what they have to say. identifying the root of a problem is key in eradicating it. the trouble we might have is identifying the voice. so we have to keep listening until someone somewhere makes sense.
"My feeling is that you could at least have a dialogue with the guys who simply sat down in the way."
No offence, but that's a very naive observation. The actual residents' protest was muscled out of the way by well known dissident republicans (many of whom were to the fore in 'simply sitting down in the way') who were [i:1a67bde0dd]determined[/i:1a67bde0dd] to bring about the circumstances where a riot (and worse) were inevitable. The first stage in that was the sit=down protest. Jimmy is completely on the money. The last thing those guys wanted was a peaceful resolution. Everyone, despite what their views are on the march itself, agrees on that - from Sinn Fein to the Orange Order, taking in the PSNI, SDLP, community workers, the media and unionist politicians.
There were many attempts to have a dialogue with them, not least from the community they said they represented. They got the outcome they wanted, although not as bad as they'd have liked, I imagine.
I'd pay to see Leif try and elicit a valid reason for this orgy of destruction from these halfwits.
Actually, calling them halfwits is an insult to idiots everywhere and credits them with twice the brainpower they actually possess, and I apologise.
I'm sick of hearing about their rights and greivances and their tiresome little cultures and how these absolute wankers seek to damage everyone in their sad parochial territorial squabble over an insignificant corner of north west Europe.
Don't take sides, they really are as bad as each other.
i may have mentioned i didn't see everything that went on with the sit-down protest, so thanks for informing me.
i don't want to take any sides, i am on the side of trying to figure out what makes people tick - why they feel the need to engage in havoc and destruction; maybe get people to see the wider social damage they cause, not just the immediate effects of brickin' the peelers. Calling them wankers doesn't exactly help with the broader task of trying to bring about peace, it creates further division.
Call me a nutter, but i believe education is the key to peace - not just the three Rs, i mean learning about the world we live in, how we can see how our actions really do impact the wider world, and not just our doorsteps. i think that what happens in North Belfast may as well be happening on my street. When we create 'them and us' we exempt ourselves from any solution, because as far as we can see, we're not a part of the problem, so fuck everyone else, as long as i'm alright... Does that make any sense?
The line of kids, youth, adults, whoever, who were clashing with the police - honestly, what do they want? Is it only violence? That just doesn't make sense; perhaps i'm crazy, but i feel there's something these people want, and THEY'RE not even sure what it is. Trying to help them figure it out is kinda where i'm at with this. (although i am admittedly a pussy and don't want to simply drive into the area and say 'hey man, what do you want?' - this is just an embryonic thing at the moment.)
Giving up on people is not the answer, there really has to be a way out of this loop of feel-good/feel-bad social mess NI seems to find itself in.
You say don't take sides, but you are creating a side for yourself, the 'fuck 'em all' side. But we can't 'fuck 'em all', because when we turn our backs on this sort of thing, it simply festers.
In saying that, i guess i'm also creating a corner of this for myself, but i am willing to invite anyone into my wee corner for tea and reasoning, just leave your prejudices at the door. :D
In my experiences, i have found that people open up when you don't judge them. You treat someone like shit, of course you get shit. I've hung out with Hell's Angels, prostitutes, drug dealers (haven't we all?). I've lived amongst people you might even call terrorists. i've seen some good in all these people, and i don't believe basic goodness is dead yet. People tend to be good when they don't feel the need to be bad. Take from that what you will.
Fantastic observation in the Telegraph on this:
[i:42cd03c07d]Fuelled by cheap cider, a wave of mass hysteria swept across the enclave. Carrying hurling sticks and crowbars, they congregated in alleyways, painstakingly learning how to make Molotov cocktails from their new mentors who cynically exploited their youthful hubris.
One, neglecting to stuff a rag into the neck of the petrol-filled bottle, simply struck his lighter and set his hand ablaze. [b:42cd03c07d]Another, who had been chanting: "SS RUC" for more than an hour, asked: "Who are the SS?[/b:42cd03c07d]"[/i:42cd03c07d]
Well, there it is, I mean most of them are probably too young to remember the RUC never mind have heard of the SS.
I think we're crediting their motives way too much by asking [i:1e7066092a]what do they want[/i:1e7066092a]?
They don't know.
They don't actually want [i:1e7066092a]anything[/i:1e7066092a].
They haven't a political thought in their heads. Some of the savvier ones doubtless want to be ruled by some bunch of fuckpots in Dublin rather than some bunch of fuckpots in London and that's probably as deep as it goes, along with a blind impotent hatred for the other side, of course.
The realisation that peace and prosperity benefits [i:1e7066092a]everyone[/i:1e7066092a] just doesn't seem to be able to get through.
The situation is actually hopeless with the vast majority of this lot.
Even though they [i:7c0fb67f32]painstakingly[/i:7c0fb67f32] learned how to make Molotov Cocktails (only the London press would call them this), it appears that at least one genius still fucked it up and set his hand on fire.
I wish that were true so I could lay the blame at the door of the education system.
It's a very dodgy combination, bitter old men who never made it to the top table during the ceasefire teaching disenfranchised teenagers who never experienced the full horror of 'the conflict' how to hate the orangies and the peelers cause they 'stole our country or something'.
Peole setting themselves on fire, trying to set others on fire is, in my opinion, ironic, but not funny. Their intentions are to cause pain and chaos and laughing it off shows us to be just as callous. i probably would have laughed all the same until not so long ago, but i would rather be part of the solution now.
Personally, i would RATHER people didn't have political thoughts in their heads. The nature and definition of politics usually masks some 'other' purpose behind the act on show; honesty doesn't feature highly in most political moves. What i believe we need here is a purely social solution. Not that any solution to this whole thing is achieved simply, i just believe real peace is possible.
If it takes a bazillion years, then that's how long it takes; it may not happen in my lifetime, but it's an irresponsible move on my part to turn away from it. It's the same as any ozone hole, or greenhouse gas thing: if it takes two lifespans to fix, then the first lifespan starts now.
Oh come [i:ce5db41618]on[/i:ce5db41618], Leif.
It's come to something if a man can't laugh at a burning spide.
It's a bit strange that you'd rather people didn't have political thoughts as politics involves a lot more than merely providing some spurious excuse to misbehave.
Not sure I follow your reasoning there.
What i mean is that politics involves so much crap. There are so many good intentions that get spoiled by politics. i don't think many people trust politicians and political processes. But they are the ones we seem to have handed off our social responsibilities to. Why should i give a toss about a burning spide when it's the politicians' job to sort out the mess? Because politics is politics and people are people. Whether it's a burning spide or peeler, the conditions exist where people are angry enough to set fire to someone. The burning spide is a byproduct of his own hatred. We would all be better off if that hatred wasn't there.
i'm not saying to abandon a political solution, i am saying that it might be a good idea if we took a bit of responsibility, each one of us; to realise that every time we say something like 'fuck 'em all', we might actually be undoing any good work done by politicians.
[i:e097903614]We would all be better off if that hatred wasn't there.[/i:e097903614]
Yes.But it is.
[i:e097903614] i am saying that it might be a good idea if we took a bit of responsibility, each one of us; to realise that every time we say something like 'fuck 'em all', we might actually be undoing any good work done by politicians.[/i:e097903614]
Yep, that hatred is there, you're absolutely right. And how do you combat hate? With more hate? By ignoring it? Don't think so. You have to make an effort to really understand where it comes from; assumption is in its own way, ignorance. Even irrational, angry people can recognize being patronized, which of course, leads to further anger.
And so what do we 'do'? i thank you for asking, honestly, but it's damn hard to answer! :)
i think the easiest thing to do, is to start by NOT doing some of the the usual things, which is of course, different for all of us. But how about stop assuming we know what's going on in peoople's heads. Ask ourselves, "hang on, is what i'm about to say based in fact and open-mindedness, or is it something that might just add fuel to the fire?"
"Yep, that hatred is there, you're absolutely right."
I'm not sure that's the case, and to suggest that those kids are just one dimensional hate fueled hoods is a vast oversimplification of why all this is happening, not to mention patronising in the extreme. I'm sure if wee Decky from the Woodvale and wee Janty from Ardoyne met in other circumstances they'd get along great. After all I'm sure they would have lot in common (Scooter? WKD?).
I'm not saying I have all the answers here, and I'm not making excuses for the awful things that went on last week, but anyone who says that these kids are wee wreckers and nothing else is doing the very thing that you are accusing them of doing - being prejudiced against 'themmuns'.
There are a multitude of serious ingrained cultural problems in areas like Ardoyne and they are being manipulated by other older parties for their own, more sinister, ends. Anybody who wants to really help could find more constructive ways to do it; say for example offering guitar lessons for a youth group. Changing people's attitudes is the only way this is going to stop happening and the only way you can do that is to stop laughing at the proles from a safe distance or sitting at your computer wishing really hard that there was no more war and get your fucking hands dirty.
[quote:8ce4db3ab3]I'm sure if wee Decky from the Woodvale and wee Janty from Ardoyne met in other circumstances they'd get along great. After all I'm sure they would have lot in common[/quote:8ce4db3ab3]
That was the idea behind those cross-community paid holidays to the US, take Janty and Decky away on holiday together and they'll see that they're not that much different. And it worked. Janty and Decky got on like houses on fire and were best mates. Played football together, hiked through forests together.
Then they came home and started throwing rocks at each other again because thats what they do, thats what they've been taught to do, not, contrary to Feline1's assertion, by the lack of an integrated education system (*), but by their parents, by the rest of the community, by the people who want to manipulate them for "the cause" and by their peers.
Could it be argued that if the reason they're doing it is to get attention and power that maybe ignoring it is the right thing to do?
(*) Anecdotally I see lots of little sectarian hoods who attend integrated schools
just as an addendum to getting your hands dirty; good advice, it's better to 'do' something as opposed to nothing.
Some people do guitar, some people do poetry, some people do boxing and martial arts, some people write on forums and try to make a change there.
The key is trying to change people's minds and just because any of us
play guitar, write poems, box, etc does not necessarily mean we are equipped with the right social skills to change minds. IE being a great footballer doesn't mean you're a great coach. i'm a half decent guitar tech, but i feel it's a wee bit of a stretch to invite troubled kids to fix guitars and build amps - expensive hobby. So i am trying to make a change using whatever literary talents i may posess - i just feel it might be more effective, especially since i spend long periods of time away from NI and my 'normal' life consists of living in the shadows at gigs.
Of course we all have to try, but we can't assume that OUR efforts are the best way to make a difference. You can never really tell how the penny is going to drop for anyone.
So get into politics. start a new party. change things.
We have local government and assembly elections coming up in may. Stand for election.
We don't [i:9e987d0fc1]have[/i:9e987d0fc1] to have the same political parties we've always had. It's not the law that they have to exist. You can do something new if you want. If enough people want the shape of politics to change and actually DO something about it, then it will change.
[i:be5b061ea6]Is it better to "Do" something rather than nothing if what you do is morally and intellectually bankrupt, deeply misguided, and just plain wrong[/i:be5b061ea6]?
So much of this is in the eyes of the beholders. Morals are subject to opinions. Peace may even be an opinion. If we agree that Ardoyne was a scene of peace the other day, then we have no problem. Going with that, it's easy to excuse doing nothing, because at least with doing nothing, you stand less of a chance of doing something wrong. Unless doing nothing is seen as wrong and morally corrupt by others, in which case you're fucked and back at square one. If this seems circular, it might be because once again, we get hung up on semantics which is, in many cases, political thinking.
i hope it's possible to agree that shooting at people, chucking burning petrol at people is not peaceful. If we can agree that's not peaceful, then we have a starting platform for peace. If we can't agree that it's not peaceful, then we have a harder road ahead.
Aye, maybe wishy washy, but the idea is to be open to anything.
i don't want to put my hands up in the air anymore like there's nothing any of us can do. i know i ain't alone, and i also know i'm not saying anything entirely original.
All the same, i don't think we've tried everything, and we need to have open minds; each and every one of us has an impact on our wider world, but I think many of us don't see that, whether it's for good or bad. If we can't see that, then perhaps that's where we need to begin. And if that's too hard to conceive, then maybe we really are all fucked and we should all go out and do whatever we want because 'fuck it, absolutely nothing i do makes a difference, one way or the other.'
What [i:9ba1e6dc4d]wouldn't[/i:9ba1e6dc4d] be wishy washy auld balls?
Well, nothing really. don't get me wrong, I'm all for it - the point is that you're not saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before by a million other people with millions of followers around the world. But then, when it came down to it, people didn't listen.
We're not all fucked, and we shouldn't all go out and do whatever we want. We should just do what we can personally by being nice to each other, while accepting that there will ALWAYS be some people who don't listen and who like to be wankers.
So by all means carry on. There's nothing wrong with unoriginal, platitudinal exhortations that we should all, like, be nice to each other, man. There's certainly room for it. But also be realistic. Jesus said "there will always be the poor", and I think that extends to wee wankers too.
that's cool, i think you're right, we have to accept that things are the way they are, otherwise we'd be living in denial, no argument there. And like we've agreed, nothing wrong with at least trying to change it.
i just reckon we all need a bit of encouragement from time to time, be reminded that it's no small thing to be kind to one another.
one thing i noticed in a remark made up the page was catholics dont want them walking down OUR street who exactly stated it was YOUR STREET when the orange men make remarks like that it causes a bloody riot only they term it THE QUEENS HIGHWAY equality needs to be the same for both sides of the political divide before we can even think of moving forward toward peace the whole thing with the ardoyne shop fronts that baffles me is that the catholics claim they are offended when the orange order takes 5 minutes to pass shops that also from what i can gather takes about 5 minutes to walk to from the nearest nationalists home how many people protest when the st paddys day parade is swamped with sectarianism ie celtic shirts in abundance and tricolours every where to me thats offensive is it ok to petrol bomb this parade simple because i dont want them walking past OUR city hall and what about sinn fein who blatantly walked threw belfast city centre with balaclava clad people weilding replica ak47s and wearing ira uniforms again is this not offensive ?? whats good for one side should be good enough for the other get rid of the double standards and see where peace gos from there when politicians are not playing each other off against each other for points scoring !! this whole countrys a fecking joke the catholics need to stop screaming victim at every opportunity when they them selves are so willing to kill and maim with out a care in the world (not aimed at the wider catholic community) but the scum who riot and try and kill people with breeze blocks then when the police arrest them they scream brutality in my eyes dropping bricks on people from rooftops is fecking brutal !!
"the road to hell is paved with good intentions!"
see, I would like to agree that we could all do something to stop these spides causing the trouble, but sadly the way I see it is the only thing you can do to stop them is to kick the shit out of them and make them afraid to do it!
there was trouble, (albeit not as intense), on the Ormeau bridge last week too. it was caused by the same wee tossers who gather there every year looking for it. now usually, the shinners manage to keep a lid on it because they're just kids who're afraid of the 'boys', but [i:daf8cf77f7]this[/i:daf8cf77f7] year they're all grown up! they simply told the shinners to fuck off, and they did!
I watched these little pricks block the road, throw paint bombs, petrol bombs, bricks, bottles and anything else they could get their hands on at the police trying their best to cause injury for the whole evening.
and the reason? social depravity? outrage at the curtailing of their human rights? a sense of national pride and a wish to hit back at the British state?
according to one of the ringleaders (who I spoke to the next day), it's 'because the prods up the road have been slegging them about how they haven't the balls to have a riot'.....on FACEBOOK!
the cops arrested some of them last week. their defence?
"we were only messing about!":O
I agree, they may be apeing what they've seen in the past, but the reason they do it is nobody has any control over them now. the fact there was 8 - 10 year-olds in amongst the trouble in Ardoyne proves the parents don't care, and as far as Gerry Kelly etc. are concerned these young ones don't give a fuck about what they say either. they don't fear the police or the courts, so why not get out of your cage and wreck the place for a while? like the one on t.v said, there's nothing better to do. it's been said on t.v that the protest against the march caused it, and if the community could learn to accomodate the marchers for the 4 minutes it takes to pass the shops all this could be avoided. the truth is though, that trouble would have happened no matter what.
cause it's a good laugh...and there's nothin better to do.
bigwoods, check these out....
...you should try some of those, otherwise you sound like you're ranting.
and the problem with these parades aren't that they pass catholic areas, it's that for half an hour before and half an hour after the '5 minutes it takes to walk past' the people in the area would be herded into side streets and put under curfew! I live on the Lower Ormeau Road, and had to put up with it for years, on some occasions being locked into side streets for many hours, and at one time for 2 whole days! most of the people here couldn't care less if the O.O wany to walk the road, but don't want to be herded like animals so they can do it.
and the [i:b352afd14d]Orange Orders[/i:b352afd14d] refusal on this matter was one of the main reasons why they got banned from walking the road!
so don't bang on about equality! the St.Patricks day Parade has nothing to do with sectarianism. Celtic shirts aren't sectarian, and nor is flying the Irish flag at an Irish celebration! if that's how you feel then don't go near it.
or, alternatively, do! nobody'll lock you into your street to prevent you from doing it.
Anyone ever apply for a job in the public sector? Equality monitoring forms, required by law (here):
"Community Background: Regardless of whether we practice religion, most of us in Northern Ireland are seen as either Catholic or Protestant. Please indicate the community to which you belong or are preceived to belong to by ticking the appropriate box below:
Surely this is the only country in the world were I'm required to tick a box to indicate I'm a Catholic atheist. Because, y'know, that's like really fucking stupid.
Check the wording. I'm "perceived" as a Catholic, even though I'm an atheist, because of my name and the school I went to.
A friend ticked "neither" and was then contacted and told that a decision would be taken on his behalf as to which community background he comes from on the basis of his name and what school he attended.
Cheery. Our government tie us to these issues, even when the results are comical.
They actually are two dimensional hate machines. I vaguely remember shouting 'Fuck the taigs' one 12th. For those of you that weren't raised on paramilitary-run council estates, I say "Yes, it actually is like that" You hate the other side on principal. I couldn't have told you what a Catholic or Republican was, neither could my (then) mates.
As a lot of people here have said, the kids are just raised hating the 'other side' with no real thinking as to why they do. We need yer woman from the Simpsons shouting "will somebody think of the chilllllllllldren?" No but really, nothing will change, scum breed scum...fair fucks till ye for tryin'...but there isn't a lot you can do. Also guy who said you have to tick one box is right, which is agreed, bullshit.
Well maybe, yeah, i mean leopards breed leopards, no doubt about it. But really, the people we call scum breed kids who are gradually turned into scum. As far as i know, there's no scum gene, although i reckon one of the many clever other FF posters would also have come up with the idea that Lambert & Butler fags are actually genetic modifiers... i dunno.
It goes back to the old addage, "hung for a sheep as for a lamb."
If you are treated like shit, you act like shit and you tell yourself you're shit and you bring up your kids like shit. If you lack self-confidence, you believe the hurtful things people tell you. People can be fuckin' cruel, we know that. Most of us don't hurl bricks at the filth, but we pretend we're better than people who don't have the same intellect. It's the same 'me v you' shit, different package, but socially, equally destructive.
Beneath all the bullshit, every wee cunt that hurls a brick has the potential to be a decent person, so how do you unlock that? There's nothing wrong with leaving a question like that open, unanswered. It gives the 'scum' the opportunity to answer it for themselves.
Ultimately it's up to the individual to change; allowing people that chance is a form of kindness.
All that stuff about Catholic aetheists and Pratestant aetheists probably violates hyumin raites, so it does.
Here in England the analogous Equalities form has a box for your Race,
and this includes "White British" and "White Irish". I always insist on ticking both even though you're only allowed to tick one. The poor person processing the form probably has to "escalate it to their supervisor" every time.
It's a pity we can't just slash useless public sector jobs and save taxpayers some money, really! ... OH WAIT!!!! lol
[quote:2c7482b0a1]Ultimately it's up to the individual to change; allowing people that chance is a form of kindness.[/quote:2c7482b0a1]
And surely we live in a society where everyone has that chance automatically? What more can you do? To force people to change (even if it could be agreed what you should force people to change to) would involve some fairly extreme systems.
We are an imperfect people abiding to an imperfect system. Perfection doesn't exist anywhere in nature. Last time a state of perfect symmetry existed gravity fell out of it there was a bang of sorts. Quite a big bang.
[i:6edbb63853]And surely we live in a society where everyone has that chance automatically? What more can you do? To force people to change (even if it could be agreed what you should force people to change to) would involve some fairly extreme systems.[/i:6edbb63853]
You got it.
Everyone is free to choose Burger King: they advertise to sway people. As do McDonald's. So everyone's trying to get someone else to partake in some shit, even if it's nothing new. They change the ads, but essentially the food stays similar. Sometimes the advertising works and sometimes it doesn't. The point is they try i guess.
They didn't do anything in the Empire,
however in 2002 (where they played at Valid.Pop, I think? And with us in the Limelight), the Socialist W@nkers Party tore down their and our posters,
under the egregious misapprehension that we were promoting fascism and collaboration with occupying Nazi armies; moreover they refused to comply with my request that we settle the matter with a fight.
Oh and at the gig, some bouncers schlabbered on about the Vichy Government's lyrics being bold or sthg. This was largely because they were d1cks. The bouncers also took issue with feline2 ushering in half a dozen under-age girls via the fire exit, which they cunningly spotted him doing because a spot-light was shining on it. Quite whether feline2 ultimately had sexual intercourse with any of these underage girls I cannot recall.
Ah, the Socialist Wabbers Party.
Feline 1 speaks the truth.Notorious in the '90's for their aggressive imperialist attitude towards other fly-posters who had the temerity to appendage bills within a mile's square radius of their own, they were as organised as the People's Front of Judea and just as effective as a serious political force.
These German Army-jacketed class (usually middle-class) warriors would turn up to protest at the opening of a bag of chips and then slouch off home to continue their obsession with fashioning red flags with various outdated right-on messages such as 'NUCLEAR WEAPONS KILL WORKERS TOO!!'
Yep, sounds a bit ignorant on my part, but what was said was 'probably won't do the trick, not "didn't do the trick."
I don't have a clue what is done behind closed doors in our political processes. Call me untrusting, but it's hard to know exactly what our elected reps have said to one another in earnest, that's all. after All the hub-bub after good Friday, there is still such an air of sarcasm and cynicism, and it's that cocktail that I feel still keeps people apart. yeah I'm crazy, big deal. When you do the same shit all the time you begin to believe you're an expert in it, and everyone else is wrong. Having an open mind to all possibilities leads to more bridge building and better relationships.
I stand by my "vow"...
I vow to make peace by learning from the past
I vow to try to understand why divisions exist
I vow never to use history to widen division
I vow to make peace by treating people around me as my equal
if i sound like a fuckin' nut job, then so be it, but there's plenty of room on 'cloud crazy' for all.