1. avatar Bileofwood
    2pm City Hall.

    19 people on Aid ship for Palestine been murdered by Israeli military.

    Protest march been set up quickly to show condemnation against the atrocity and support to the beleaguered people of Israel.

    Worth noting, this type of march would be illegal if the 37 day Public Assembly bill is passed.

    Please come down and show support. Rant, rave, then have a pint afterwards.
  2. avatar tinpot anto
    I heard 4pm?
  3. avatar isis
    is the march today? I'm stuck in work til 5.30...
  4. avatar Bileofwood
    The text that I got says 2pm
  5. avatar fastfude
    here's a toot saying 4pm: http://twitter.com/ConallMcD/status/15098953940
  6. avatar Bileofwood
    The person who texted me 2pm has just sent me another text to say 4pm

    IT'S AT 4PM! 4!
  7. avatar MULLAN Extraordinaire
    PROTEST the mindless massacre of humanitarian aid workers by Israeli forces during the night. At least 19 confirmed murdered. Show your outrage, don't bury your head in the sand. BELFAST @5pm City Hall -- DERRY Guildhall @5pm -- GALWAY Eyre Sq @6pm -- DUBLIN Spire @6pm
  8. avatar tinpot anto
    http://bit.ly/aOk6T5

    Credible reports that the "MV Rachel Corrie", an Irish Vessel carrying Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Corrigan Maguire and others have decided to defy the blockade further and press on to Gaza, despite the obvious threat to life and limb.

    Please everyone do what we can to support and protect them by applying all possible pressure on our government to hold Israel to account!
  9. avatar salfhal
    Watch the videos (even the edited Al Jazeera ones).

    The boarding party was attacked by the ship's crew with many weapons, the commandos used batons and pepper pot paintball guns, but when life was deemed at risk they legitimately used deadly force.

    I have no support for either side, but attacking a military boarding party is simply against any logic I can comprehend, I do however have concerns over the fact that the event allegedly took place in international waters.

    Anything involving the Pals seems to attract protest marches etc here, really confuses me, as many other international issues are ignored. Meh, my opinion won't change anything, but watch the bottom up media sources, not the sensationalist mainstream.
  10. avatar salfhal
    <object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/d3b_1275323514"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/d3b_1275323514" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" allowscriptaccess="always" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>

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  11. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:10f0505be4="salfhal"]The boarding party was attacked by the ship's crew with many weapons, the commandos used batons and pepper pot paintball guns, but when life was deemed at risk they legitimately used deadly force.
    [/quote:10f0505be4]

    Did you miss out the bit in which injured civilians were administered first aid and shots being fired before a single Israeli soldier even boarded the ship?

    [quote:10f0505be4="salfhal"]
    I have no support for either side, but attacking a military boarding party is simply against any logic.
    [/quote:10f0505be4]

    Not when you defend yourself against a military party that has shot at you BEFORE boarding. Regardless of that, the people on board had the right to defend themselves against Israeli soldiers who ILLEGALLY boarded the ship in international waters.

    Whatever way you look at it, the Israelis are on the wrong side of international law.
  12. avatar MULLAN Extraordinaire
    Exactly. You have no idea what happened on that ship. There has been an information black out by Israel so witness reports can't come out. Israel took their time releasing the footage they wanted the world to see. And of course main stream media is hour by hour beginning to lay blame on ship's passengers.

    Now, Israel have forcefully brought the flotilla to their soil where everyone will be detained and told to either sign deportation papers or go to jail. This has happened without the presence of lawyers nor access to respective consulates within Israel.

    I can't help but agree with Norman Finkelstein in that Israel has become a lunatic state.
  13. avatar tinpot anto
    [img]http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/weaponsmarmara1.jpg?w=500&h=332[/img]

    Here is the official Israeli photograph showing the chilling array of "weapons" used against them.

    Obviously they were well prepared for a serious fight, and there's no way that just any old item was grabbed in the heat of the fight. That's how they *wanted* it to look!

    Seriously if that's the official photo and we are all meant to accept that this is a dangerous array of weapons used to deadly effect by a hostile force, and not just "find everything that looks dangerous and line it up with a Hamas flag in middle" the Israelis really are deluded.
  14. avatar MULLAN Extraordinaire
    They actually released that as an official photo? Fuckin hell you could find most of that stuff in my flat and shed never mind a ship that had to carry scores of passengers.
  15. avatar sloppyjoe
    Those grinder discs are deadly. If you pick one up and throw it with the anti-gravity gun you can decapitate a zombie no problem. Or was that circular saw blades?
  16. avatar Chi-Lite
    Jonathan Bell of the DUP currently justifying the attack, and using it to have a go at Sinn Fein. Knob
  17. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:fd17911edd="tinpot anto"]Seriously if that's the official photo and we are all meant to accept that this is a dangerous array of weapons used to deadly effect by a hostile force, and not just "find everything that looks dangerous and line it up with a Hamas flag in middle" the Israelis really are deluded.[/quote:fd17911edd]

    More than anything, I am interested to see what will they reply to people with enough sense to point out that the maority of that stuff is either necessary for the maintenance of the ship or was known prior to the attack to be on board as they ship was carrying fucking *building material*!
  18. avatar tinpot anto
    The only item not obviously a tool or utensil is that broad-bladed knife, but that looks more like an ornament than a weapon, hardly useful.

    In fact surely any normal vessel of that size would have a few guns on board for security?
  19. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:31be4f256b="sloppyjoe"]Those grinder discs are deadly.[/quote:31be4f256b]

    I dunno, I'm more scared by the paint roller. Its like the scene from Brasil where they've got a tray of torture equipment and in the middle is a bouncy ball.
  20. avatar Recycled Alien
    [quote:7bc14cc3c9="tinpot anto"]In fact surely any normal vessel of that size would have a few guns on board for security?[/quote:7bc14cc3c9]No, that would be very uncommon, even, say, in Somali waters. (Where a few operators have employed armed guards from security companies and that is considered very controversial in the maritime community.)

    I haven't heard any reports of guns having been on the Gaza flotilla prior to the arrival of the Israeli commandos.
  21. avatar sloppyjoe
    [quote:f9e32b0a1f="my-angel-rocks"][quote:f9e32b0a1f="sloppyjoe"]Those grinder discs are deadly.[/quote:f9e32b0a1f]

    I dunno, I'm more scared by the paint roller. Its like the scene from Brasil where they've got a tray of torture equipment and in the middle is a bouncy ball.[/quote:f9e32b0a1f]

    Right enough, there is a paint roller. The bastards were obviously well tooled up for a spot of aggro.
  22. avatar my-angel-rocks
    And looking at the big photo: http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/weaponsmarmara1.jpg
    Is that a travel knife/fork/spoon set on the deck to the right of the collection of knives on the green flag?
  23. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:0869e56d8e="my-angel-rocks"]
    Is that a travel knife/fork/spoon set on the deck to the right of the collection of knives on the green flag?[/quote:0869e56d8e]

    Yes, it is. Didn't you know they are deadly weapons capable of fending off one of the most advanced military forces in the world?
  24. avatar sloppyjoe
    [quote:5aa64174c2="POSITIVExYOUTH"][quote:5aa64174c2="my-angel-rocks"]
    Is that a travel knife/fork/spoon set on the deck to the right of the collection of knives on the green flag?[/quote:5aa64174c2]

    Yes, it is. Didn't you know they are deadly weapons capable of fending off one of the most advanced military forces in the world?[/quote:5aa64174c2]

    Yes, they should have known better. Camping cutlery is taken very seriously indeed in the post-9/11 world. There was a [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html]6-yr old kid banned from school[/url] last year for having a set.
  25. avatar tinpot anto
    I'm glad they stopped short of presenting a copy of "Under Siege" as "Terrorist Training Material"
  26. avatar Bileofwood
    This is well worth a read.

    http://marksteelinfo.com/writing/default.asp?id=164
  27. avatar salfhal
    Terrible lot of backslapping going on here, watch all of the videos, they did not fire on the boat before boarding, the live fire didn't start until the first 4/5 commandos had dropped in and been attacked.

    And the weapons photos; that's the example of the weapons used to attack the soldiers, I don't see how that's controversial? Many of the commandos were stabbed and beaten with poles and planks of wood.

    I don't agree with anyone justifying what happened, it was clearly not within Israel's jurisdiction and therefore cannot be justified.

    However soldiers firing on people who are stabbing, beating and throwing comrades overboard and onto lower decks is justified when all forms of non-lethal force have been attempted, in my opinion.

    [quote:09dd19a8bf="POSITIVExYOUTH"]Not when you defend yourself against a military party that has shot at you BEFORE boarding.[/quote:09dd19a8bf]

    Except that didn't happen... Even the Al Jazeera boyo says that they have been pelted with stun grenades and tear gas, no live fire.

    [quote:09dd19a8bf="MULLAN Extraordinaire"]Exactly. You have no idea what happened on that ship. There has been an information black out by Israel so witness reports can't come out. Israel took their time releasing the footage they wanted the world to see. And of course main stream media is hour by hour beginning to lay blame on ship's passengers.[/quote:09dd19a8bf]

    Not true, most of the people were free to go, but as was explained in the debate on BBC Radio Ulster yesterday, many decided they wanted to further protest by attending court, and thus had to be detained until the trial, AT THEIR CHOICE, not forced.

    The part about the footage is bollocks, the Al Jazeera broadcast corroborates the other ones and it was live, the Israel video was distributed the same day, they all show the same thing, the boarding party being stabbed, beaten and thrown off the top deck. It also shows that there was no live fire until there was a fairly large party on board.

    [quote:09dd19a8bf="tinpot anto"]Here is the official Israeli photograph showing the chilling array of "weapons" used against them.[/quote:09dd19a8bf]

    Anto; if you were stabbed/beaten by them you'd think them chilling enough, you don't need an m16 to kill a human, many of those would quite easily do the job that their users intended in that situation.

    In my mind - Israel wrong for boarding at all. - people on board dicks for attacking armed soldiers.
  28. avatar sloppyjoe
    I would agree up to the point that if you attack an armed man you should understand that he's likely to shoot you. But that doesn't mean that the IDF had any right to assault civilian ships in international waters, or that those on board put themselves in the wrong by fighting back. Saying that they should just roll over and comply as soon as the guns come out is akin to "might is right". Resistance was reckless, sure, but not wrong legally or morally. And any weapon to hand is fair play when your attackers are armed. Seriously, I can hardly believe that the battle-hardened Israelis have the gall to complain that their commandos - trained killers, wearing body armour and bearing modern firearms - were attacked with a fucking paint roller. Me, if I was going out to pick a fight with the IDF, I'd pack a shotgun at the very least.
  29. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:9b4dc69575="salfhal"]
    [quote:9b4dc69575="POSITIVExYOUTH"]Not when you defend yourself against a military party that has shot at you BEFORE boarding.[/quote:9b4dc69575]

    Except that didn't happen... Even the Al Jazeera boyo says that they have been pelted with stun grenades and tear gas, no live fire.[/quote:9b4dc69575]

    It was said they initially fired paintball guns at them.
    In the dark how do you know that the noise of paintballs hitting off a metal hull is not a bullet?
    There's far too much deliberate misinformation from both sides to know what happened at all and we will never know the truth at all, so I don't see any point arguing over the details.

    As it stands, Israel should not have boarded the boat and the boats crew had every right to defend themselves against the boarders. Someone commented that if it was an American boat being boarded by Iranians, or a boat being boarded by Somali pirates and the passengers fought back they'd be declared heroes, foolhardy maybe, but still heroes. All we can do is look at our own hypocrisies and try to understand why one thing is ok if Israel does it, but bad if someone else does it.

    And mock.
    I'm getting though it by mocking.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  30. avatar Recycled Alien
    I hear that the USA wants an inquiry into the incident to be conducted by a neutral party: Israel.

    Next they'll be calling for North Korea to impartially investigate the sinking of the South Korean navy ship. (OK, no they won't.)
  31. avatar Chi-Lite
    Salfhal, that is absolutely contradictory balls.



    [quote:63354b84bd="salfhal"]I don't agree with anyone justifying what happened, it was clearly not within Israel's jurisdiction and therefore cannot be justified.

    However soldiers firing on people who are stabbing, beating and throwing comrades overboard and onto lower decks is justified when all forms of non-lethal force have been attempted, in my opinion.[/quote:63354b84bd]

    If the original boarding wasn't justified, then defending that boarding isn't justified either.

    That's like saying that me breaking into someone's house isn't justified, but if they attack me with a knife I'm justified in shooting them - NO!

    That's balls. So the homeowner may not be justified in stabbing me, but that doesn't justify me shooting him - after all, I've no justification for being in his house in the first place, ya know.

    Or like saying that a bank robber may not be justified in robbing the bank, but if a cop hits him with a baton when he's running away then he's justified in shooting the cop, because the cop's attacking him. after all, he's defending himself against attack, and that's OK, yeah?

    don't you see the absolute bullshit that is? Regardless of what happened, as they had absolutely no justification for being in the boat, the lack of justification extends to what they did on the boat.

    Perhaps I'll come into your house tonight and try to abduct your wife. I've no justification for doing it, but if you try to attack me, that'll then give me every right to shoot you in the head. that's the way your logic works, right?
  32. avatar tinpot anto
    Well said marty, safhal that is a self-deluding incoherent load of ould shite.

    Not to mention this flotilla is part of the greater injustice of the slow starvation and strangulation of the people of Gaza, so it's like when Marty's coming to take your wife; it's only after he comes round your house every week and shits in your fridge, bucks your dog and takes all your furniture.
  33. avatar MULLAN Extraordinaire
    Lethal.
    Salfal, you need to ask more questions and educate yourself A LOT more about Israel's tactics. Look up some past examples of how they deal with any "attack" on their land. And according to most Israeli's logic, 9/10 people who've posted on this thread are antisemetic dogs.
    I'm away for a fuckin bacon sambo.
  34. avatar 10rapid
    Let's gang up on the guy and insult him for expressing an opinion.
  35. avatar tinpot anto
    Precisely ITS THE INTERNET AT ITS FINEST
  36. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:6b373af69d="10rapid"]Let's gang up on the guy and insult him for expressing an opinion.[/quote:6b373af69d]

    No, i know, I know! Come on we'll all, like, express our own opinion as well! And then there'll be, like, all different opinions! Seriously, come on we'll do it!
  37. avatar tinpot anto
    People have no right to believe utter shite.

    They can express what they want, but they have to be prepared to defend their position.
  38. avatar salfhal
    I have no problem in "ganging up", the interweb shouldn't hurt people's feelings like.

    I'm expressing an opinion that I believe is well researched and founded on values that I hold, and as both of these premises are subjective, I can hardly expect everyone to hold the same opinion.

    All I am saying is that I believe the IDF were wrong in boarding outside their territory, however, if they had simply waited until they broke the cordon and sunk the ship, they would've been justified in doing so. It seems as if they TRIED to prevent the ship ever reaching the boundary, and things went terribly wrong.

    However in saying that, I also believe that the people on board acted in the wrong manner, instigating the violence was quite clearly a stupid idea. The IDF indeed shouldn't have been there, but it is quite clear that they weren't going to board and murder everyone, as the people that were running the ship had been well warned that they were not allowed to enter the Gaza boundary.

    http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=26968

    It's not contradictary logic, I think both sides were wrong in the way they acted. It's funny how some of you guys get aggressive just because someone holds a different opinion.
  39. avatar 10rapid
    Perhaps it's the patronising tones that grate. To a casual observer, it looked like they tried to throw a soldier off the boat.
    Turkish papers are reporting that a few people on the boat had been talking about martyrdom before the trip.
    As for why the Isrealis were boarding in the first place, maybe we'd see it in a different light if our relatives had been killed by an indiscriminate rocket attack in isreal, fired from a country whose government is intent on the destruction of a whole state.
  40. avatar salfhal
    http://www.yinzyidz.com/home/2010/5/31/israel-warned-flotilla.html
  41. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:af1850c4e2="salfhal"]the people on board acted in the wrong manner, instigating the violence was quite clearly a stupid idea.[/quote:af1850c4e2]

    You mean the way it's a stupid idea to punch a burglar when he breaks into your house?

    Look, when armed men break into your house and you fight back, YOU are not instigating violence - the armed men breaking into your house are.

    [quote:af1850c4e2="salfhal"]but it is quite clear that they weren't going to board and murder everyone,[/quote:af1850c4e2]

    No? What, it was only clear that they were going to murder 9 people, or whatever it was?

    [quote:af1850c4e2="salfhal"]as the people that were running the ship had been well warned that they were not allowed to enter the Gaza boundary.[/quote:af1850c4e2]

    What, that boundary that Israel has absolutely no jurisdiction over? Is that like when someone tells me I'm not allowed into my own house, and then shoots me when I try to get in?


    [quote=10rapid]To a casual observer, it looked like they tried to throw a soldier off the boat. [/quote]What, that boat that they weren't meant to be on? Isn't that just like throwing a burglar out of your house?

    [quote=10rapid]As for why the Isrealis were boarding in the first place, maybe we'd see it in a different light if our relatives had been killed by an indiscriminate rocket attack in isreal[/quote]

    Aye, funny enough that's similar to what people used to say about joining the IRA - "maybe we'd see it in a different light if our relatives had been killed by the Brits/loyalists/whatever. Unfortunately, that's not how morality or justice works. That's why juries aren't composed of relatives of murder victims. So yeah, maybe we would see it differently - but we'd still be absolutely wrong.

    By the way, I'm certainly not being agressive, and I don't mean to be patronising - just trying to show the absurdity of your view
  42. avatar tinpot anto
    The greater situation of the fact that the flotilla itself is a deliberate political act in defiance of the immoral and unjustifiable blockade on Gaza is again being overlooked. The flotilla was a political challenge to this injustice and a non-violent one - it was met with violence.

    All of the reports independently from each of the boats tells a consistent picture of IDF acting agressively. Henning Mankel reported that people on their boat were tazered for "going a bit slow" he said the troops were nervous, fidgety and wired.

    This does not seem like a sensible state in which to attempt a difficult excercise in crowd control. The group on the Marmara decided they had every right to challenge the IDF's right to board their ship, and in doing so met with disproportionate force. 9 people were murdered and dozens more injured.

    I might be able to find a thousand reasons why the IDF responded as they did, but what I can't find is any reasonable balance. There is a clear aggressor who behaved with utter lack of responsibility towards civilians and the victims who behaved utterly reasonably in the circumstances.
  43. avatar dave.cava
    I'm surprised the "chilling array of weapons" (obviously blunt knives, rubber batons, etc.) weren,t quickly secreted out of the way and replaced by pints of milk as soon as the peaceful activists realised they were fukd?
  44. avatar 10rapid
    This "burglar in your house" analogy is michievous as well as I've never driven my house into a contentious area, thus making a visit from "burglars" inevitable, before throwing an armed burglar off my roof and expecting his armed mates not to shoot me.
  45. avatar salfhal
    [quote:ca0a914378="Chi-Lite"][quote:ca0a914378="salfhal"]the people on board acted in the wrong manner, instigating the violence was quite clearly a stupid idea.[/quote:ca0a914378]

    You mean the way it's a stupid idea to punch a burglar when he breaks into your house?

    Look, when armed men break into your house and you fight back, YOU are not instigating violence - the armed men breaking into your house are.[/quote:ca0a914378]

    I would tend to agree with your premise, however legally it's not justifyable, citzens are only permitted to use acceptable force to subdue a burglar. The same idea should work with the recent events, you may prevent the IDF from performing their task, but not by stabbing them, throwing them over a deck, kicking the shit out of them with bats etc.

    There is no "fatal flaw" in that thought process, the opinions many of you have expressed are logical fallacies, the IDF were wrong to board in international waters, but equally the reaction by the crew was wrong.

    Would you have prefered that they waited until it broke the blockade and they had just sunk the ship? The Flotilla was told on several occasions that if they docked at the designated area, the aid would be transferred (overseen by the Flotilla staff) to the appropriate land based boarder crossings. A waste of life, for something that both sides could've avoided.

    I'll refrain from further comment, as I believe it's becomming disrespectful for those that have died to be quarrelling like children, I feel my opinion has been expressed, no need to publish it further.
  46. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:e8bdf37175]the IDF were wrong to board in international waters, but equally the reaction by the crew was wrong. [/quote:e8bdf37175]

    No you see that's PRECISELY the problem. The crew were not EQUALLY wrong, they were clearly [b:e8bdf37175]much much less wrong[/b:e8bdf37175] as they didn't shoot dead 9 civilians unnecessarily. In fact in my own view they had every right to resist the assault on their ship by any means necessary, violence and all. Legally they also had that right. The Israelis acted outside their territorial waters on a foreign flagged vessel, by every legal understanding it was state sponsored piracy.
  47. avatar MULLAN Extraordinaire
    One of the main reasons why the flotilla refused to hand over their aid to Israel is because much of the cargo they had on board is on the banned list. Including any building material, certain foods, ah jesus the list goes on and on and on and on.
    Even clothes were banned until last year.
  48. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:97058ebbdb="10rapid"]This "burglar in your house" analogy is michievous as well as I've never driven my house into a contentious area, thus making a visit from "burglars" inevitable, before throwing an armed burglar off my roof and expecting his armed mates not to shoot me.[/quote:97058ebbdb]

    But the analogy still works perfectly. the point is, if you did drive your house into a contentious area, and throw the inevitable burglar off the roof, would that mean that his inevitable mates had every right to shoot you?

    Obviously not. the analogy still works perfectly.
  49. avatar feline1
    I like the way Joey Ramone pronounced "Massacre"