1. avatar nonemoreblack
    Just heard this from a guy in work, though it was keek but.......
    [url=http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=1039169&c=1]Nimic Closes...[/url]
  2. avatar Pete
    [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8358073.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8358073.stm[/url]

    [quote:9cd3b44a19]NIMIC has made a significant contribution to the development of the music industry in Northern Ireland since 2001[/quote:9cd3b44a19]

    Anyone actually agree with this?
  3. avatar goodonpaper
    A real honest shame — Sandra & Ross have always had the time of day for me, were unbelievably supportive and always full of invaluable advice when it came to my involvement with promoting local music. Regardless of your opinion of the organisation or anything like that, they were extremely hard-working guys doing the work of a half a dozen people between them and I wish them all the best success in their next endeavour, whatever that may be.
  4. avatar nonemoreblack
    "Irreconcilable differences". Surely that should be left to the bands:rolleyes:
  5. avatar dummadrumma
    I'd echo goodonpaper's sentiments about their open-door policy and their hardworking if (at times) prickly attitude.

    There was an open encouragement of entrepreneurism by NIMIC which I admired greatly and which I've found to be absolutely lacking in other parts of the UK music industry. We had something unique in NIMIC - a body that recognized, advised, encouraged and supported new ideas and endeavours - for musicians and music businesses - in favor of cronyism and closed-box thinking.

    I don't see how anyone could say the NI Music Industry is better today than it was 2 weeks ago. Instead of a focal point and voice for NI music (with all of it's flaws) we're now back to the heady-days of the late nineties - where back-biting, each-man-for-himself, me-first attitudes reigned supreme and collaboration for the betterment of music as a whole was (and is again) a subject of ridicule.
  6. avatar Strong Reaction
    I'd forgotten about NIMIC after never actually coming across anything they'd ever been involved in, bar an industry q&a many moons ago. Can't say this will actually make much difference to the local music scene.
  7. avatar EPK
    http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=1039169&c=1

    I was involved initially as a very vocal critic of NIMIC and then as a board member for 4 years as it eventually became the body known to so many, helping them make music, videos and promote themselves worldwide. Staff gave everything they had to make this happen.
    I don't know what has happened here, but "irreconcilible differences" are no excuse.
    If people realised the body itself was threatened then they should have taken themselves off and allowed a cooling off period.
    Furthermore, a meeting of members should have been called to thrash this out before this decision...which I'm not sure is even legal within the NIMIC constitution...was taken.
    As a result of intransigence the music industry itself is the loser, and I hope that they'll remember that for the rest of their days.
    Thanks for nothing, whoever you are.
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  8. avatar paperlanterns
    Personally always found Ross helpful and full of great advice – so thanks you and good luck to both Ross and Sandra!
  9. avatar dummadrumma
    [quote:69e5f5764b="EPK"]
    As a result of intransigence the music industry itself is the loser, and I hope that they'll remember that for the rest of their days.
    Thanks for nothing, whoever you are.[/quote:69e5f5764b]

    That's EXACTLY what I was trying to say. Well done, you absolute wankers (whoever you are).
  10. avatar T Entertainment
    All I can say is that any time I contacted NIMIC for assistance, they really bent over backwards to help - things like PRS, accounting, legal advice etc. You picked up the phone and they immediately invited you round for a meeting.
    They went the extra mile, and all for the cost of an email joining up.
    So thanks to Sandra, Miriam and Ross for that.
  11. avatar thebatgranny
    Feline 1 will be happy.
  12. avatar spirit of division
    I have asked Nimic twice for advice and both times never heard anything back...I cant think of anything they've contributed towards the music scene which has had any benefit to me.
  13. avatar jenniemcc
    Personally I know NIMIC wasn't perfect, but at least it was something.

    With the closure of NIMIC it leaves a big empty void, and no representation for the music industry at a higher level.

    I'm concerned about what's going to happen next. Could be a case of better the devil you know....?
  14. avatar T Entertainment
    McCarthy frustrated that NI music body has folded

    Alliance Culture, Arts and Leisure spokesperson Kieran McCarthy MLA has expressed annoyance that the Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission has folded saying assistance is important to ensure musicians in the region can reach their potential. The organisation was set up in 2001 to showcase talent and further develop business skills in the sector, and it has now folded due to 'irreconcilable issues within NIMIC's board.'

    Kieran McCarthy MLA said: "This is bad news for music in Northern Ireland. Our music professionals and experts should be able to work together to help new talent develop and gain recording contracts.

    "It's rather ironic that NIMIC has folded due to differences given that 'musical differences' is the oft-quoted factor behind many bands splitting.

    "Our music scene is vibrant and it's a real pity that this group has ceased to exist. I would however encourage other experts to take the initiative and come together to provide assistance for up-and-coming bands and musicians here.



    "Musicians working together here to help pool their skills and assist each other seems logical and I would like to see a new network emerge if possible."
  15. avatar Deestroyer
    Somebody please think of Cecil. Please...
  16. avatar Chi-Lite
    At least Kieran seems to be off the swal in the early mornings anyway.
  17. avatar JoanneNicole
    I agree with Jennie.
    I also feel, to be left without this typpe of represenation is a step backwards for everything the music community has achieved here over the last number of years. The importance of groups such as Open Music Media Belfast is now vital is ensuring Northern Ireland musicians have a voice in how we progress in the future.
    http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=171257027313&ref=mf
  18. avatar Rich9
    I'd also like to voice my support for the work that Ross and Sandra have done over the last few years. if it wasn't for the Music Its The Business programme, and their one-to-one mentoring, i doubt that i would have had the inspiration or insight i've needed to get to grips with today's music industry.

    The collapse of the NIMIC board shouldn't mean that Ross and Sandra are punished. The relevant bodies should react quickly to ensure that the momentum, spirit and enthusiasm they've created is not lost.

    For such a small team with scandalously limited resources, they've helped put NI on the music map.
  19. avatar EPK
    Once again, how can an organisation which is membership based, with board members elected by that membership, decide to wind itself up without an EGM for members to consider the issues and put it to a vote?
    I'd like someone to point out to me how this can legally happen.
    In addition, the NIMIC Articles Of Association, its Constitution, says that directors can be removed by an ordinary resolution.
    This should have been done to ensure the existence of the organisation at all costs, and there has been a failure of duty to do so.
    With Rich, I agree that Ross, Sandra and all staff did a fantastic job. I saw their work at first hand, and the paltry sums that were used in funding were maximised beyond belief due to that commitment. This mustn't be allowed to be wasted.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  20. avatar savagebilliards
    [quote:48f5c8ff27="spirit of division"]I have asked Nimic twice for advice and both times never heard anything back...I cant think of anything they've contributed towards the music scene which has had any benefit to me.[/quote:48f5c8ff27]

    I found the same. I contacted on a number of occasions needing advice(ok all be it via email) but never heard anything back.
    In saying that i have been told by mates in various bands that they are/were really helpful.
  21. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    NIMIC were helpful to me, and to alot of people i know who needed help doing what they wanted to do in music. This is bad news in my opinion.
  22. avatar goatboy
    NIMIC almost part-funded a Rikmandu tour of the UK and for that I am almost grateful. For those of you interested, the homecoming party was going to the in the Portaferry Arms, with Star Residue, Grit and the Dangerfields playing too.

    I never really had any dealings myself with NIMIC, however I'm certainly aware of some of the work they have done.

    However, how much did they really do? I imagine most people probably forgot that they actually existed for advice etc.
  23. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    I know alot of people who went to them regularly for decent advice on issues ranging from show promo / prs / publishing / management / booking agents etc etc etc

    They also helped secure funding for artists + industry people to get to important industry events / shows / meetings they would have otherwise had no chance of getting to

    That's the tip of the iceberg i'm sure, and cynicism / dismissal / disgruntlement aside, they were a very useful resource
  24. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    haha
  25. avatar Chi-Lite
    I can't say how helpful Nimic where, as I've never had cause to contact them, but surely the fact that an organisation like that can fold because some of the organisers have fallen out must say something about how the organisation was run.

    Imagine if the Arts Council folded because some of its board members fell out? Or, as it's about the "industry", imagine if the CBI folded because some of its members fell out?

    Says something about how open and transparent the organisation was, put it like that. No slur on the major contacts, Ross and Sandra, who, I've heard, have been very helpful to lots of people. That's no way to run that kind of organisation but. As is now apparent.
  26. avatar Rocky
    I think it's remarkable that still in Northern Ireland a bunch of old, angry, bitter and irrelevant
    feuds and a small group of mindless assholes can stop the rest of the country from getting on with things.
  27. avatar Rocky
    NIMIC's panels made me realise I actually had to actively be my bands manager.

    They also introduced me to quite a lot on industry professionals who helped me in out in various ways.

    They provided me with details of press/radio contacts within Ireland, which helped to no end in the early days of Oppenheimer.

    They also generated interest from major labels/publishers/managers/promoters through their personal contacts.

    They helped us make a video.

    They helped financially in part take us to SXSW a number of times.
    Each time we visited SXSW, something remarkable happened -
    Meeting our first publishing company (which equated to having enough money to tour for 12 months)
    which led to our next years SXSW - Which led to worldwide licensing deals -
    which led to the next year at SXSW - which directly led to a publishing deal with Warner Chappell.

    Their events at SXSW, for every single artist who went there, resulted in something solid being achieved.

    Ross & Sandra worked tirelessly on very limited resources.

    The reasons for closing are insane and do not represent the views, attitudes and hours that I personally work hard to achieve.

    I honestly hope that something is secured to take over where NIMIC left off,
    something free from the issues that ground this to a halt.

    Alone, the music it's the business panels and the professionals brought into our country and
    put on a platform for artists and hopeful professionals to learn from is such a great loss.
  28. avatar T Entertainment
    Is there any chance that someone could shed a bit more light on what actually happened here?
    This 'irreconcilable differences' line simply isn't good enough.
  29. avatar goatboy
    [quote:9d7621b20f="goatboy"]However, how much did they really do? I imagine most people probably forgot that they actually existed for advice etc.[/quote:9d7621b20f]

    I actually meant, "How much did they really do, recently?". It's just they seem to have been keeping a low profile the past few years. I imagine if more people knew that they actually existed, the likes of new/young bands etc., then maybe they wouldn't be in such a predicament.
  30. avatar T Entertainment
    How do you figure that then, Goat?
  31. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:7fc6d4a836="T Entertainment"]Is there any chance that someone could shed a bit more light on what actually happened here?
    This 'irreconcilable differences' line simply isn't good enough.[/quote:7fc6d4a836]

    Well one side thought they should fund Suicide Dolphin Bombers so they could go to Owen Morris' studio, the other thought putting on a huge N. Irish festival (with SDB headlining of course) was the way forward. Irreconcilable, but understandable. I think Oh Yeah should do the festival (local bands recreate classic festivals from years gone by - first up, Glastonbury 1973), NIMIC should do the funding.
  32. avatar Chi-Lite
    Because if there were new, younger, fresher, more hip cool cats in bands getting in contact, they may not have fallen out. Obviously.
  33. avatar comprachio
    I had a number of occasions to contact NIMIC and they ALWAYS replied to my emails and set up meetings really quickly. Sandra and Mark Gordon have given me some great advice and help (mostly on the business end of things) that has definitely improved how my band operates. Its also been great to hear some of the guest speakers who they've brought over to dish out industry advice.

    In short this is a step backwards.
  34. avatar SweetDickWilly
    NIMIC might not have been all it could've been, but at least they tried. Who/what can bands turn to now for advice and support?
  35. avatar goatboy
    Well, I obviously don't know any exact facts. However, there hasn't really been much mention of them on here in ages. Plus, as you well know, I have plenty of friends in local bands who haven't mentioned them in a long time either.

    They used to have a decent enough presence though. A quarterly (maybe monthly?) magazine, helping out with gigs over here etc.

    Maybe I just haven't noticed much of their recent work because I've been away for the majority of the past five years.

    I have nothing against them though and I agree that it is a sad loss to the local music community.
  36. avatar fastfude
    [quote:c587271b4b="Musicweek"]The organisation has been winding down operations for over a year, according to sources at Invest NI, the project’s original sponsor.[/quote:c587271b4b]

    WTF? Are the board's minutes published anywhere?

    It's notable by the stark difference in comments from [url=/topic.php?id=1691]8 years ago[/url] how far both NIMIC and NI musicians themselves have developed, and therefore doubly bad that this has been the end result.

    EPK also has a point - there seems to be a big hole where 'due process' should be. Investigative journalists, start your engines!
  37. avatar Strong Reaction
    Well, what I meant by my post is that like Spirit Of Division, I'd really have no dealings with them due to self-management, promotion etc. I'd see how they could be useful for people with little knowledge of the music scene, but as posted above, I'd forgotten of their existence due to their seemingly non-existent profile around the country.

    Unless there was a special Bat-Phone used for contact, or distressed bands shone a Rikmandu-shaped Beacon from the top of Victoria Square.
  38. avatar EPK
    There seems to be a general consensus that this is a Bad Thing


    The proposed meeting on Monday is a good place to start, as long as it deals with the point.
    In addition, contacting political representatives might help bring pressure on continuity of the role NIMIC played, if not the continuity of the body itself.

    In the meantime, there has to be an account of what happened, and why it wasn't handled in house before this debacle occurred. There must have been some pretty bad stuff to have enabled it to get out of the very capable hands of John Edmund.
    If you were a musician forming a career in music and making any progress, you needed NIMIC.
    Ian, I don't know how you might have missed the dozens of music industry seminars that covered all aspects of the business, the songwriting seminars with zillion-selling writers, and the opportunities for promotion abroad. They were always heavily over-subscribed.
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  39. avatar JTM
    I would echo a lot of what's been said already, for all NIMIC's flaws and criticism it's received, rightly or wrongly, it's a loss to local music and a blow to those who worked hard to earn the successes it should be remembered for.

    My question is - what should replace it? Clearly there is a need for a step up from the grass roots DIY "scene", to give bands more advice, support and most importantly the funding they need.

    I'm reliably told there's a meeting on Monday for interested parties to discuss this. Details to follow, possibly?
  40. avatar EPK
    I've seen one statement saying that a successor wouldn't be funded.
    I'd like to know how some genius arrived at that conclusion.
    Perhaps if the successor were to be called the Sons Of NIMIC Memorial Flute Band money might roll in without any problem.
  41. avatar jenniemcc
    Yes, there's a meeting on Monday evening, 6pm at The Limelight.

    It's a chance for people working in the music industry to get together and share opinions. Hopefully we can also talk about how we'd like to move things forward. ie. present the powers that be with a reasonable alternative of how we could best be supported in the future.

    I haven't, as yet, invited anyone from BCC or InvestNI.

    Anyone that would like to attend, get in touch at jen@bruisedfruitpromotions.com just so I can get an idea of numbers.
  42. avatar JoanneNicole
    Any word about the meeting on Monday?
  43. avatar JoanneNicole
    Opps sorry ignore last post!
  44. avatar Rich9
    from http://nimusic.com/about-us

    "The current NIMIC Board of Directors is: John Edmund (Chairman), Andy Peters, Damien Murray, Ashley Mason (Company Secretary), Lyndon Stephens, Lisa Flavelle-Cobain, Les Hume (Representing NIRSA), Robbie Barry, William Thompson, Jim Heaney."
  45. avatar pennydistribution
    I'd echo a lot of the sentiments on here about this being a step back ward. When I was considering relocating my business to NI it was Ross who encouraged that, explained the opportunities and risks and played a big part in my enthusiastic return to these shores.

    The ways NIMIC have assisted me and my little endeavor are innumerable so I won't list them out - but the networks they've connected me to, advice they've given me and the sheer fact that there was always an open door - not to mention being able to draw on Sandra & Ross' considerable experience - have been absolutely invaluable.

    I know for a fact that other regional cities in the UK didn't have anywhere near this valuable a resource at the disposal of its music industry.

    What's notable for it's absence in this conversation is NIMIC's critics - the supporters of the people who thought an industry WITHOUT NIMIC was better than one with NIMIC. I want to hear from the people who perpetrated this closure: What was so wrong with NIMIC that you felt it was necessary to tear the organization down? What gave you the right to hamper the entire music industry because of intransigence? And what direction do you propose now you've had your way?

    This is not righteous indignation - for the sake of debate, I honestly want to know...
  46. avatar Chi-Lite
    Hold on, if the reports are believed, what tore it down was internal bickering, rather than other people criticising it.
  47. avatar EPK
    I've written to Kieran McCarthy MLA,and I'll be doing so to all the bodies involved in funding.
    The excuse for winding down is pretty flimsy, and should have been taken to membership to vote on, given that directors were industry representatives.
    The idea that no representation is better than having your idea nixed is arrogant in the extreme, is completely undemocratic, and showed that the people involved maybe didn't quite understand what they were there to do.Represent the people they've just disenfranchised.
    When I was there there were some hard times, but there was a sense that we had to make a go of it, differences notwithstanding, and eventually many people benefited from that consensus.
  48. avatar pennydistribution
    [quote:7b23bc7948]Hold on, if the reports are believed, what tore it down was internal bickering, rather than other people criticising it.[/quote:7b23bc7948]

    yep, that's exactly what happened.
  49. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:5b2937aa91="comprachio"] has definitely improved how my band operates. [/quote:5b2937aa91]

    It's a shame you guys are still rubbish, though.

    I am, of course, only kidding.

    Echoing many of the pervious statements, I'd be keen to see what happens next. I've personally never really had any dealings with NIMIC, but it strikes me as apparent that a lot more bands are self-aware, and capable of being self-sufficient these days. Is that as a result of NIMIC's involvement?


    (Truth be told, I hadn't heard anything about this until yesterday evening. Though I did notice they'd been very quiet for a while.)
  50. avatar Recycled Alien
    [quote:d5808f8cf3="pennydistribution"] I want to hear from the people who perpetrated this closure: [/quote:d5808f8cf3]

    According to the news, these are the guilty people:
    [quote:d5808f8cf3="Rich9"]from http://nimusic.com/about-us

    "The current NIMIC Board of Directors is: John Edmund (Chairman), Andy Peters, Damien Murray, Ashley Mason (Company Secretary), Lyndon Stephens, Lisa Flavelle-Cobain, Les Hume (Representing NIRSA), Robbie Barry, William Thompson, Jim Heaney."[/quote:d5808f8cf3]
  51. avatar kingstreetarts
    I've heard that the directors of the board of NIMIC have not been allowed to see a report on the music sector in NI commissioned by NIMIC and delivered by Prof. Richard Harrison, Queen's University.
    I'll be there at the meeting Monday night. Looking forward to it.

    Joby Fox
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  52. avatar fastfude
    Not allowed by whom?
  53. avatar kingstreetarts
    Ask the chairman. John Edmonds
  54. avatar EPK
    Mmm...I'd have the highest regard for John Edmund.It's sounding very interesting.
    I'm wondering where Ross and Sandra come in this.
  55. avatar shep
    NIMIC has overall delivered tremendous value, a range of excellent services and significant opportunities since it's creation. This has been achieved on what has generally been paltry funding.

    It has along the way assisted the careers of many local artists, delivered results for other professionals and for those who desire to make a career in music, as well as providing a valuable and trusted interface with government and other bodies.

    The current staff team have worked tirelessly to lift NIMIC's performance to a consistently good level. Their predecessors likewise have contributed significantly.

    Many board members, including the current chair, have down the years given freely of much of their time, without financial reward, to help move it forward.

    It has increasingly had widespread - if often unstated publicly - support from a broad spectrum of people in and around music in NI and further afield.

    It has made some mistakes along the way, but who or what organisation hasn't?

    Throughout, it has been an easy target for snipers, and the subject of some dreadfully misinformed bullshit. Some of that has arisen through simple ignorance. Some unfortunately from more malicious motives.

    There has, as is reported, been infighing at board level in recent times. I am told that two factions had more or less formed amongst the elected directors. There will be two sides to that story as always, and healthy disagreement is often important to advancement and has been in the organisation's past.

    But it is my strong opinion that some people need to take a long fucking hard look at themselves, as to what it has been they were hoping to achieve, and where that has ultimately led the organisation, and indeed the rest of us.

    Today's announcement is truly awful news for the local industry and the our creative musical talents. I really hope a positive resolution can be found to the obvious question of what happens next.
    Last edited on , 5 times in total.
  56. avatar EPK
    Amen to that.
    In pulling NIMIC down, they have not only wasted their own time, but the time put in by many more over many years who helped achieve real results after hard work and sacrifices.
    That's a disgrace that I hope sticks to their hubris forever, wherever they go.
  57. avatar Captain Kennedy
    A Freedom of Information request will get you the minutes etc. Invest NI or DETI or whoever runs the show should have all this stuff.
  58. avatar fastfude
    If there are two camps wanting to move the organisation in different, presumably incompatible, directions then why not resolve it as any other political system does?

    Call an EGM where each camp sets out its manifesto and asks members to vote for it. If you win the majority of the vote, you can presume members approve of your plan and enact it.
  59. avatar EPK
    That's exactly it, and as a member-based and member-elected organisation, that's what should have happened, Roger, which is why I'm asserting the dissolution is illegal.
  60. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:816600b580="fastfude"]If there are two camps wanting to move the organisation in different, presumably incompatible, directions then why not resolve it as any other political system does?[/quote:816600b580]

    Refuse to talk to each other but still collect your salary for doing fuck all?
  61. avatar EPK
    Here's a little education.
    No-one on the Board gets paid. It's voluntary.
    And I see your point now....
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  62. avatar my-angel-rocks
    yes...but i was making a satirical comment on how other political bodies around here sort out their differences. Not very funny jokes are even less funny when they have to be explained.
  63. avatar dave.cava
    "[i:596d711243]IT WILL NOT BLOW OUT THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA AND LET ALL THE WATER RUN DOWN THE HOLE. IT WILL NOT DESTROY GRAVITY[/i:596d711243]"

    Personally I see the situation where NIMIC seems to have eaten itself as an opportunity to bring to the surface an undercurrent of discontent which I have witnessed among many seasoned musicians and others involved in all aspects of the 'Music Industry' in N.I.
    Reading the various replies on this topic it is fair to say that there are those who feel NIMIC has made a significant contribution to the N.I Music Industry and there are those who don't.
    Again, personally I see the demise of its recent form as no loss at all.
    I think "irreconcilable differences" at board level is the agreed 'press release' and as the digging seems to have begun by some old faithfulls on this board I think the hole is going to get much bigger.
    My own criticism of the recent NIMIC is that there seemed to be "significant opportunities" open only to a chosen few and that the "paltry funding" which was available a few years ago had increased quite a bit in recent years. In fact, this year as a sectoral body applying to the N.I Arts Council alone, under the Creative Industries Inovation Fund they could be eligable for up to £100,000 for each round of applications. There where 2 this year. Stating that using C.I.I.F funding they commissioned a survey on the Music Sector in N.I by Queens University, it would seem they where successfull in securing funding from that particular source. Is there any information on what this paltry amount may have been and what the survey actually cost?
    Also another use of funding obtained from somewhere was the "major overhaul" of the NIMIC website, at the time announced with great fanfare. I must say I was disappointed to find when visiting the website that the overhaul consisted of a few HTML tweeks which could have been done by your average webmaster for a few shackles no doubt. Infact when when I used the search facility on the site to find CAVA, the band I play in, it came up as "CAVA now a 3-piece"...? infact CAVA have been a 4-piece for over 4 years now since Ms Ruby Colley joined us with her magnificent electric violin ;) Again it would be interesting to find out how much that website overhaul cost exactly.
    As for its 'Music It's The Business' programme, by the end its suggested calibre of panelists had diminished quite considerably. Infact I think it may have even been cancelled?
    For me I have to agree with EPK and many others here on the point that the loss of such a body (not NIMIC in its recent form) would be a step back in the development of a Music Industry in N.I. I think as suggested, if the dissollution is challenged as illegal, the infrastructure could arguably be retained, gutted and replaced with a more transparent body.
    Firstly though as T.ENTERTAINMENT rightly states, "This 'irreconcilable differences' line simply isn't good enough." I want someone capable to check the books before they ride off into the NIMIC sunset:evil:
    Lets be positive folks and look at this as the said opportunity to calm the waters and set sail a new boat to help navigate some unchartered waters.
    Maybe next OhNo! can come under the spotlight and yer man can justify the £160,000 or whatever he trousered to change the odd lightbulb, put on a load of cover shows, and maintain a fucking turd polisher?
    Good luck comrades.

    http://www.cavamusic.com
  64. avatar Smallsquare
    May I be the first to make some sort of joke regarding the Continuity Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission.
  65. avatar Rocky
    FUCK!
  66. avatar Smallsquare
    The first act of the CNIMIC should surely be to put on a gig as a show of strength, someone puts on a balaclava and records a youtube video vowing not to rest until Northern Ireland has a music industry. You got a viral meme right there.
  67. avatar EPK
    Some good points there from Dave, and I'd like to thank the individuals who have contacted me in the last 24 hours. The plot thickens, and as Dave says, the hole gets deeper.
    Firstly, I need some confirmations.
    Did anyone receive notifications of the last AGM?
    I'm being told that a membership database was "lost" and the call didn't going out.
    I need clarification on this.
    Legally speaking it means the current..and I maintain there is still a currency there...Board is actually illegal, as the AGM wasn't run legally and all appointments are invalid.
    That would put us in the situation where an illegally elected Board has tried to close down a members organisation illegally. Not perhaps a kosher move.
    If so, a call for an EGM...which I would prepared to do as a member...and supported adequately...could take place where all this could be thrashed out and a new Board appointed.
    If any of the other stuff I'm hearing has legitimacy, we'd still be in trouble re. funding organisations, but the groundswell would still shown a desire for the body from the industry it is supposed to represent and support.
    We have a number of ex-Board members around who worked strongly together until a couple of years ago...and from what I'm hearing that's when things went a bit blurry...and that expertise might...and I stress might...be put to work.
    I've a lot of questions, but no answers, unfortunately, nor am I getting any officially.
    If NIMIC is a members organisation...and the Articles of Association say it is...then members can take control, and need to.
  68. avatar stevieo
    It was funded to represent all of us. Anyone out there who didnt like the way they did things should post immediately and get a sensible debate going here.

    I had mixed feelings about NIMIC. They helped get things going over here in a business like manner. If they weren't always directly involved they certainly inspired people to up their game.

    I heard a lot of complaints that they didnt give the time of day to some people. I chased NIMIC for three months to get a coffee and a chat, nothing more, no joy, that's my personal gripe. Objectively, they didnt have the time their task was too big to look after everybody.

    The seminars were great. I was at a few of them and on that score I think they reached the most people.

    I remember when my own music business activity consisted of phoning Shep, putting up posters and trying to blag airplay from Johnny Hero. Now there's many promotion companies, radio stations, places to play and more artists who know how to work hard.

    We shouldnt shy away from talking about this. It concerns everyone in this country who has ever thought about getting on a stage. Some of us ought to take a leaf out of Australia's book as far as taking pride in its own people.
  69. avatar EPK
    I've now a lot of information coming in, so I'm going to take time and try to sift it out before Monday's meeting, when I'll pass on what I can.
  70. avatar MSB Mastering
    As would be expected, broadly speaking, there seem to be two camps, as would be expected: Those who got money or assistance, and/or were awarded work and are sad NIMIC seems to have closed or be closing, and those who didn’t are aren’t.

    I for one think that NIMIC did a fantastic job with its “Music it’s the business” programme but didn’t see much else happening. I also feel that some of the jobs that NIMIC played in the past were lacking in the website redesign, such as a database of practice rooms, music managers, studios, music labels and lawyers.

    I’m not a critic of NIMIC in itself, but I am a critic of a lack or perceived lack of transparency.

    Roger, you ask whether the board's minutes are published anywhere? They’re not on the website as far as I can tell, and I would have thought that that would be the most sensible place for them. Surely minutes can’t be approved if they’re not presented for approval.

    The same goes for the articles of association. EPK, you’re asserting the dissolution is illegal. You might well be right, but without the articles of association, who’s to know?
    If you or anyone has a copy, please feel free to post them here. Let’s see if due process has been followed, because if it hasn’t, that in itself would be enough reason in my mind to close the organisation.

    What is NIMIC? EPK says the articles of association say it is. However, nowhere on http://nimusic.com/about-us do I see that mentioned. Surely an organisation such as NIMIC would want members to join. I’d also have thought that members should have been notified about AGMs. However, when I attended the one in 2008 (as I was tipped off about it), I was told that they hadn’t been able to notify members as they’d lost that information. Funny enough, other databases used for notifying about the “Music it’s the business” programme weren’t used!

    Let’s see if the report that NIMIC commissioned ever sees the light of day. I’d certainly like to know who owns it. Surely the only reason for suppressing it would be if it were highly critical. And even then, if NIMIC is closed down, this should be used to learn lessons for the future.

    And if the dissolution is illegal, let’s fight it.
  71. avatar comprachio
    [img:a096f995e3]http://shellgames.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/mel-gibson-braveheart-photograph-c101019223.jpg[/img:a096f995e3]
  72. avatar jenniemcc
    [quote:e502de81c3="EPK"]Here's a little education.
    No-one on the Board gets paid. It's voluntary.
    And I see your point now....[/quote:e502de81c3]

    Sorry to be a sh*t stirrer, but I have it on pretty good authority that John Edmund was getting paid £520 per hour
  73. avatar Jim Heaney
    My first post!
    [quote:6cf30ead2c="jenniemcc"][quote:6cf30ead2c="EPK"]Here's a little education.
    No-one on the Board gets paid. It's voluntary.
    And I see your point now....[/quote:6cf30ead2c]

    Sorry to be a sh*t stirrer, but I have it on pretty good authority that John Edmund was getting paid £520 per hour[/quote:6cf30ead2c]

    I think it would be sensible to get facts right before making such wild and completely untrue comments.

    As EPK stated above, John, like all other board members, do this completely unpaid. The fact is it has cost John substantial revenue being involved in NIMIC.

    I would suggest that you delete or edit your post, unless all you are doing is "shit stirring".

    Can I ask who is the "pretty good authority". If someone has told you this I wouldn't believe anything they say.
  74. avatar mattagnew
    interesting story but i must ask, is everyone as well spoken on other threads are they are in this one? :D

    i never had any reasons to deal with nimic but the idea of it was good, and of course any source of funding or advice for irish bands or music businesses being withdrawn is bad thing.

    i'm more confused on how something this 'important' can just fold though, surely it's a company thats bigger than the people that run it? if people decide to leave the board, shouldn't a replacement be found rather than the whole operation be shut down?

    so to be honest if it can be shut down so easily, surely it's a blessing in disguise as hopefully if there is a replacement, things should be put in place to stop everything falling apart in future... build the house out of bricks, not straw..

    keep us updated on what happens on monday.
  75. avatar EPK
    I'd support Jim on his observation.
    That's the money John E could be making, instead of giving his time and energy free on a project he's supported from the start, and having been involved for 5 years in the financial break-down with John there , I suggest that good authority is without authority any at all, and is merely trying to catalyse the reaction.
  76. avatar T Entertainment
    [quote:cc7c95181d="pennydistribution"][quote:cc7c95181d]Hold on, if the reports are believed, what tore it down was internal bickering, rather than other people criticising it.[/quote:cc7c95181d]

    yep, that's exactly what happened.[/quote:cc7c95181d]


    Exactly [i:cc7c95181d]what[/i:cc7c95181d], tho?
    I would like to see a little more clarity on here, rather than dark allusions. As long as it's the truth, let's have it. It's going to come out in the fullness of time anyway, there are several people digging right into this now.
    But for the purposes of this discussion, which is being conducted largely by NIMIC members, it would be good if someone could factually outline what actually [i:cc7c95181d]happened[/i:cc7c95181d], if they do know?
  77. avatar JTM
    Yes, let's ascertain some facts.

    The last thing I want is to turn up on Monday with people flinging Daily Mail style allegations and calling for blood without at least establishing some hard truth first. I have no interest in attending a witch hunt, I just want to get on with the real business of how to get a successful music industry body up and running.
  78. avatar EPK
    I've talked to both sides, and I'm putting together my own view.
    However, some of the stuff we've seen on here is correct, some incorrect, and some sheer fantasy.
  79. avatar EPK
    [quote:47cafc9ee3="JTM"]Yes, let's ascertain some facts.

    The last thing I want is to turn up on Monday with people flinging Daily Mail style allegations and calling for blood without at least establishing some hard truth first.[/quote:47cafc9ee3]


    I'm sure we won't let facts get in the way of a good old scrap.
    It looks like a reasonable turn out so far, but I'd maybe get some perches in for the vultures who'll come to bury NIMIC, not to praise it, and I personally will be sewing my trouser pockets up just in case I'm in the presence of some of our bourgeoisie who would rummage through a corpse's pockets and claim they were in search of "funding".
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  80. avatar kingstreetarts
    I may be at the centre of this row! I was at the 2008 AGM and was voted onto the board by the members present! The chair(John Edmund) overturned my vote a few days later and replaced me with Jim Heaney , he did a personal recount Im led to believe. I wrote in complaining about it and thats what seems to have began the decline in to this messy business. Apparently Jim Heaney wasn't even eligible to stand because he had been on the board before and wasn't off long enough.

    I'm still not happy about it, 'I was stone walled', and to be fair a lot of the board agreed with that analysis. There were a lot of strange goings on at that AGM.. Rab has been helping me out trying to shine some light on it ever since. I like most people, i trust, is here to impart their experience for the benefit of all the music industry, which isn't just about bands but also rehearsal and recording studios, managers, publishers, venues, etc. Of course band s, song writers and musicians are important – they sit on top of the apex as such. The main body of the industry however support the apex, so I'm sure you get my point.

    I am a singer /songwriter in my own right bye the way check me out: JobyFox.com
    I run a none funded arts centre in the heart of belfast with reherasals for bands etc Kingstreetarts.com
    I have been a signed artiste many times over with companies like EMI, MCA and Virgin. I have been involved in music for the last 30 years from being a roadie to having a hit record.. I have toured Europe, America, Canada, Britain, Bla Bla Bla...

    For me it's a labour of love. I love music. So putting myself forward for the NIMIC board was not a stepping stone into a paid job nor for imperial ambitions. Im pretty sure there is a game afoot here by more controlling forces within local government and some members of the board. That is to: Dissolve NIMIC to re-emerge as a group with a different name, not a membership-led organization but more like a quango. There is a smell of political jockeying about it all.

    It is ridiculous that a membership organization can disappear over night without the membership knowing anything about it. it has got to be illegal! It demonstrates the contempt some board members had for the membership. The AGM I was elected at, (which I heard about on the grapevine), was presided over by a judicature who was there to keep it all legal – apparently - but he had no copy of the constitution, neither did anybody else. What da hell is that about!? Proxy votes that where cast had me elected to the board , Were not valid. I found out much later they had to be in 48 hours before the AGM, but know one knew it was on. I found out by chance..

    I've been trying to get hold of Rab, but I think he might be in Dublin doing some session work over the weekend and not answering his mobile. Last time I spoke to him he wasn't too happy with Invest NI who seem to have played a part in the all of this.


    I trust you will understand that I'm not trying to hinder the music industry here , but trying to help. I Do not care about personalties. i dont want to be part of a back biting load off old shite! I just wanted to help.

    Just had it confirmed that it was John Edmund the Government consultant who put the wind up proposal forward, Ashley Mason who is in the Ulster Orchestra, Jim Heany, Lisa Flavelle and Lyndon Stevens all voted unanimously for NIMIC to close.

Apparently the rest of the board are very angry with the way it was done! They were given very short notice of the meeting and could not attend. Sounds like board rush and it smells.

    Joby Fox Singer/songwriter
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  81. avatar EPK
    I've heard about the proxy votes, Joby, and I'm checking them out.
    I have a copy of the Articles of Association, and the proxy rules are as stated in the Votes of Members Article 24 section, they need to be presented 48 hours before.
    In that case John Edmund's ruling is correct, Joby, unfortunately for you.
    The Articles have to be followed completely for it to be a legal process..sometimes it's your saviour, other times it works against you.
  82. avatar kingstreetarts
    Look you ginger haired bastard ! Only Joking! Im fine bye rules but they have to apply all round!

    Your faithful Roadie Joby...lol
  83. avatar MSB Mastering
    EPK, you might be right, but I think you'll find it impossible to present proxies for a meeting that wasn't announced to the association's members as they claim they'd lost that database.
  84. avatar tinpot anto
    Aw Jesus like, it's been a good while since we had one of these tales full of sinister hints of malpractice and embezzelment but without any real FACTS.

    Sickens me to see its return.

    Ah well, I'm sad to see NIMIC go, I thought after some dodgy times in the first couple of years they managed to deliver an extraordinary programme of top class seminars and workshops, free to attend, brilliant speakers and so on, as well as help a lot of bands with touring, going to SXSW and such.

    Seemed to me it was always easy to see how the budget had been spent: branding, accomodation, travel, offices, staff, couldn't see an awful lot of room for pocket lining myself. Ross and Sandra were always accessible, helpful and supportive with any contact we had with them.

    Strikes me the whole membership thing was an incredibly strange way to organise such a body. Rather than guarantee accountability it seems to have been a major weakness.

    I'd be interested if there has been any genuine fraud or malpractice on the part of the board, and I'm amazed that a public body like this can wind itself up without consultation. But I'd like FACTS, not snearing insinuation. THANK YOU.
  85. avatar EPK
    [quote:25943aabcf="MSB Mastering"]EPK, you might be right, but I think you'll find it impossible to present proxies for a meeting that wasn't announced to the association's members as they claim they'd lost that database.[/quote:25943aabcf]

    Funnily enough I checked, and I received notification for it.
    I asked about the lost database and non-notification of members, and both were denied, as I actually received notification I'd need more evidence for that...although I don't know what that would be.
    Again, if people didn't know about the meeting, how could they turn up with proxy votes, which they did?
    I'm just looking to fill in details here, by the way, that need filling in.
    I think it's important for people to come with something to substantiate their allegations, otherwise they're worthless as evidence of malpractice...especially for Monday night.
    I'm not sticking around to hear what someone's ma's sister's dog told them.
    Have something to say, something to substantiate it, or keep quiet.
    Impossible, I know, but I have to try.

    Joby...you're gingerer than I ever was, and you were a shite roadie, so that's why we had to teach you bass!
    The decision on proxies wasn't made by John Edmund..or even within NIMIC.
    It was put to legal advice, and the solicitors determined it.
    That's what I mean, Joby..you were indeed "led to believe" something which wasn't actually true. You weren't elected because of some fraud, but because someone didn't read the rules they needed to read beforehand. It was bungled, not lost.

    Anto is hitting the nail on the head. Membership was the weak spot.
    Provided people kept the real aims at heart, it would work fine.
    However, bloc voting, a disregard for democracy and factionism seems to be at the heart of this, and that has ultimately disenfranchised everyone who was a member and ended the projects that some people would be benefiting from even now.
  86. avatar fastfude
    Just checked my archives and I have a BCC'd email dated 19 Nov 2008 with the AGM notice etc, and another received 22 Dec 2008 about the proxy jiggery-pokery afterward, so there's at least me on the database.
  87. avatar shep
    Just checked my records, received notification on 19 November 2008, and as noted above it's a blind copy, which suggests it went to a database.

    Accounts were attached and an agenda with notice of elections, part of which reads as follows:

    [i:f115ac13e6]Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission

    7th Annual General Meeting

    NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the 7th Annual General Meeting of the Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission (NIMIC) will be held at The Black Box, 18-22 Hill St, Belfast on Wednesday 10th December 2008 commencing at 6.00pm to consider the following business:

    To approve the minutes of the 6th Annual General Meeting (AGM) held on 28th December 2007 at the The Black Box, 18-22 Hill St, Belfast.

    To receive and consider the Chairman’s report on behalf of the Board of Directors for the year ended 31st March 2008.

    To receive and consider the Annual Report and Accounts for the financial year ended 31st March 2008.

    To reappoint Johnston Graham Ltd to provide accounting and financial reporting services to NIMIC until the accounts are next laid before the members in General Meeting and to authorise the Board of Directors to approve their remuneration.

    To note the result of elections to the Board of Directors ....

    [b:f115ac13e6]In accordance with the Articles of Association, all members of NIMIC are entitled to receive notice of and to attend General Meetings of the organisation. Every member shall have one vote and shall be entitled to appoint a proxy to attend and vote in his/her place. A proxy voting form is enclosed.[/b:f115ac13e6]....

    There are 3 vacancies on the Board of Directors.

    NIMIC welcomes nominations from its membership to fill these vacancies. Any individual in membership of NIMIC at 31st March 2008 who wishes to serve as a member of the Board or to nominate another member to serve should complete the attached nomination form and return it to Ashley Mason, Company Secretary, The Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission, Unit 2 Northern Which House, Bridge Street, BELFAST, BT1 1LU by 5th December 2008. If the nominations exceed the number of vacancies, an election will be held at the AGM. Voting will be by a show of hands.[/i:f115ac13e6]
  88. avatar kingstreetarts
    Sorry Eamonn my friend, you are missing the point about my election overturn, that some on the board raised which has not been answered ..... and yes the the board read the constitution before they decided anything. They also understood that proxies should have been put in 48 hours earlier.

    The point is -

    The votes where taken on unmarked ballot papers that just contained the candidates names with boxes beside them for you to choose your candidate.

    So just to be clear with you. Some people arrived with proxies yes, they handed their proxies to the accountants who where there to take the vote (yes they actually had accountants booked in) so they 'musnt' have been expecting a large turnout. 

    The accountants handed all NIMIC MEMBERS one ballot for themselves and one ballot for each proxy they had with them from NIMIC members. They didnt identify the 'proxy' votes in any way as different from the non proxy votes. Then the ballot papers were collected to be counted, but still not in a way to identify the non proxy votes. The real question is how did John Edmund figure out which where proxies and which where not. How did he decide that all the proxies were for me and not for example for 'Jim Heaney' (who i was well ahead of in votes) or any of the other candidates that were voted for. It was an amazing feat.

    Magically John Edmund was able to 'personally' work out which votes were proxies and which were not. No one has been able to figure it out but im sure Ross or John will give you a 'detailed' answer to this and perhaps we can have it investigated by someone who is independent. John Edmund apparently didnt feel the need to get the accountants to recount the vote, who im sure could have pointed out the dilema.  

    and just to be clear with you again. The other 3 candidates agree that this was not fair and the proxies could not have been differentiated from the non proxies. Only Jim Heaney who I was replaced with, seems not to have a problem with it. Maybe Jim could clarify the situation. I see he has posted here.

    Perhaps he could also clarify publicly when he left NIMICs board the last time he served as this again seems to be a very grey area which has been hard to get a straight answer to, as article 32 of the constitution states -   

     "Each director of the company shall hold office for a four year period but can only hold office for two consecutive four year periods however any such director may be re-elected provided that a period of at least 24 months has elapsed from the date on which he last served as a director".  

    Id just like a date, not a hard question to ask you would think. Maybe you could get an answer. Ask?

    You asked how people could turn up with proxy votes  (or even put them in to the office?) ask Jim Heaney if he had any proxy votes? Hes on the board of NIMIC. He posts on this site. Ask him?

    You also said my election overturn was based on legal advice. Well for sure that would sort it out. Perhaps they could publish this legal advice just to clear the whole misunderstanding up.  Ask ?

    you said membership was a weak spot, do you think a quango would be better?
  89. avatar EPK
    It seems to confirm that a general call went out, and though you didn't get one, Darrell, I'd look at oversight rather than intent due to the fact that candidates got their papers in time.
    Their support wasn't marshalled properly for whatever reasons, but it now seems that notification is unlikely to be one of them.
    If they wanted elected...and they knew the dates...they should have canvassed their voters and ensured the proxy votes got there in time.
    As nominees, it was their responsibility to do this if they wanted to ensure election.

    Further to Joby, the only proxy votes eligible were those that were already received 48 hours previously.
    I can't speak about the differentiation between the votes as they were handed in, but I'll be asking about them.
    However, I'd be surprised if they weren't separated from the other votes as there was an immediate issue about them on the night.
    The accountants were there precisely to act as independent vote-collectors, so that no allegations could be made, but which hasn't prevented that happening.

    When the matter went to legal advice, they ruled that the proxy votes on the night were not eligible, and Jim Heaney also had 9 proxy votes for him discounted as a result of this ruling.
    Jim's eligibility was also raised with the solicitors, but the restriction as to Board membership (new rules from 2007) only became an issue after eight years service and NIMIC had not (then) been existence for that length of time, so no one could have been caught with the restriction.
    Also Jim Heaney had only served one term (4 years) and had then gone off the Board because of the old rules, so there was no way he could have been caught by the new Board regulations

    I hope some of this helps, and I can understand why you feel that there's been a stitch up.
    I'm not sure that there was, and I think the issue has to be with the people who didn't get their proxy votes for you in on time.
    However, I'm satisfied that the contentious issues went to an independent third party, which was the right thing to do in the circumstances.
    If I could see an injustice here I'd be shouting it out, but I really can't see anything that obvious. It's a pity, Joby, I know your heart's in the right place and how committed you are to music after so much time put in.

    I always wanted NIMIC to be a membership organisation, accountable to those members.
    I was probably the most vocal critic of NIMIC way back when I saw no information and no accountability in the early stages, and lobbied passionately for that to change, eventually from the inside of the organisation until I had to leave when my time was up.
    However, if the choice is between a non-members organisation or nothing at all, I'll certainly go for the Quango.
    I don't like Quangos but I want the members of the music industry..particularly musicians themselves..to get as much help as they can from whatever source.
    This has to be the bottom line. Helping the industry. When winning a fight becomes more important to someone, it's time for them to step down.
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  90. avatar JoanneNicole
    Stupid questions but just checking who is gonna chair this 'open meeting' tommorrow night?
    There are so many mixed views, he says, she says,going on even on this forum alone, its a minefield in itself to read through all the comments. I'm just wondering who's gonna cut the crap and keep the peace? There has been some talk of the press being down and i'm sure no one wants it turning into a circus with "irreconcilable differences"
  91. avatar EPK
    I could write an account of the meeting here now, probably.
    We'll get a load of allegations, no evidence and a shouting match.
    Throw in a soupcon of "NIMIC never did nothing for me" and then more shouting.
    Then back to the start on a cycle of blame.
    I doubt that few people would even know how to conduct themselves at a meeting, and everyone'll look stupid as a result, unfortunately.
    It'd be nice to see where people think we should go now, but I doubt that foresight and common sense will be in abundance.
    Actually, I've depressed myself so much I'm having second thoughts now.
    I've better things to do these days than spend my life convincing people of the Bloody Obvious.
  92. avatar dave.cava
    Agree with EPK and can see said meeting turning into a beer and pitchforks scenario.
    A lot of good investigative work has already been done here by 'NIMIC members' but that is essentialy all that can be done by them.
    The debate has turned into discussions on old protocol and he says, I says, we says etc. This has deflected from the original topic which was kind of along the lines of 'NIMIC disappears into thin air' with no real explaination.
    Irriconcilable differences? Sorry but I smell 'rats sinking a rotten ship'
    I think attention should be drawn to the whole fiasco and not only Government bodies being informed but also the police.
    Over the years and especially recently, larger amounts of money have gone through NIMICS hands.
    I as a member want to know how that money was used. Who was funded, who was employed, expenses, invoices, receipts.
    Personally i would rather have nothing than a Quango.

    http://www.cavamusic.com

    .
  93. avatar EPK
    Well, as annual audits and financial reports are done externally and independently as a legal necessity and sent out each year before the AGM to members, I've no problems about finances at all and never have had.
    I saw where the money went each year, helped decide where it would be spent and how every penny was wrung out to achieve maximum support for people.
    The accounts were available and could always be examined by members, so any talk of dodgy or irregular finances are testicular in nature.
    As for a Quango, if that happens it'll be a necessary evil brought about by circumstances and people who knew the alternatives.
    And if that happens, Dave, neither you nor I will be able to nix it, influence it, or know anything about what happens inside it, so your opinion on it...and mine...are irrelevant.
    It'll be a monument to the incapable.
    However, let's step away from this and look at the reality of the situation.
    Three people have just lost their jobs over this, not long before Christmas.
    Three people who worked their arses off day in and day out to ensure some people might have a chance to further their careers and dreams.
    That's also the legacy of this affair, and to taint those people with vague accusations about things that are sitting there freely available is a bit shabby.
    I'll give a tenner to the person who actually does anything more than make accusations and does some investigation work on the accounts themselves.
    I called in an earlier post for people to deal with matters they could substantiate, but with remarks about calling the PSNI into the affair we have now crossed to Planet Stupid.
    That's decided the matter for me, and I won't be at any meeting tonight, as I can see more of the same from people who unfortunately won't know anything, let alone better.
    I think that as a music industry we're getting what we deserve.
  94. avatar kingstreetarts
    Everybody needs to wise up a bit here. There is a meeting being held tonight to discus these matters. Why not go? For my part I will be conducting myself in my usual civil manner.
    I have a business to run and I could be doing a lot of other things more sensible, but as I said I'm willing to give some of my time to help others. If that's not what's happening tonight then I won't be sticking around. Maybe Dave Hyndman from NVTV could chair? It's just a thought. Maybe what's left of NIMIC can be represented by sub-groups formed from each strand of the music sector. Epk, I think you should be there, I think every body who has something to say should be there and pre-concieved ideas about how it will go doesn't help, my friend. So come on. I know it's a pain in the balls.
  95. avatar fastfude
    I'm in two minds about the meeting myself, for much the same reasons outlined above. I think having some concrete questions and answers would be a start though, rather than a meeting of the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso]People's Front of Judea[/url].

    Here's a few questions rattling around my brain:

    What are the 'irreconcilable views' that caused all this? Who was involved and what did they want?
    Is it done and dusted that NIMIC is no more? Can this be undone?
    What are the things that now won't happen without NIMIC?
    What existing plans will be cancelled?
    What contacts abroad will be lost?
    Who will be directly affected by this?
    What other people or organisations can fill the gaps?
    What NIMIC-eqiuvalents worldwide can be used as a model here?
    What is the view of ACNI, BCC, DCAL, INI about all this?
    Where is my coffee?
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  96. avatar tinpot anto
    How it goes will be determined by the people who attend.

    The more people who want to act constructively to salvage this mess the better in my opinion.

    I can't make it myself however, but I'd appreciate anyone who is going with a sensible head on to attend and try and make some sense of this on behalf of everyone.
  97. avatar shep
    [quote:2d0e50b128]That's also the legacy of this affair, and to taint those people with vague accusations about things that are sitting there freely available is a bit shabby.

    I called in an earlier post for people to deal with matters they could substantiate, but with remarks about calling the PSNI into the affair we have now crossed to Planet Stupid.[/quote:2d0e50b128]

    Too true.
  98. avatar The Ronster
    Someone should bring a video camera just so there's no arguments over what was said.
  99. avatar Rocky
    I thought the point of tonights meeting was "what's next?"

    Is it going to be four hours of people slabbering and bitching and fighting and and
    wanting to phone the police over NIMIC closing, or is it going to be music industry professionals (people working and earning their living from working in the music industry) discussing how they
    would like to be represented, supported, nurtured and inspired.

    From what I've read of it, there's been no mention of discussing what happened, why it happened,
    why it should have been different, why life is so shit, why people are dicks etc...

    For those not in the know about what went on, it could be useful to find this out, but I
    hope this meeting isn't the place to do that.

    I don't feel that a room full of hard working people (and whoever else turns up)
    should be dragged through a circus of conspiracy-theory-injected dog shite,
    because we'd all be better spending the time thinking about ways to improve our bands/businesses/lives.

    NIMIC IS GONE. We all need to work really hard to continue to make our own businesses a success, like we all should have been all along, like most of us are.

    How can we help each other to do that?

    What do we need in terms of assistance and resources to continue to expand and prosper?
  100. avatar tinpot anto
    I think before everyone moves on there are still questions about whether the board actually had the power to fold NIMIC given they clearly went beyond the wishes of the membership and certainly bent if not broke the rules of the organisation in doing so.

    Is it really a done deal that Nimic is over?
  101. avatar thesacredhearts
    Im not a NIMIC member, but from a outside view, surely if the actions of the board were in contravention of the rules, then NIMIC does still legally exist? Is it not a pertinent question for the members? And if so should the infrastructure in place at the minute not be salvaged as best it can?
  102. avatar The Fires of Hell
    [quote:b97f992e17]Someone should bring a video camera just so there's no arguments over what was said.[/quote:b97f992e17]

    Doubtless the usual citizen photo journalist media nodes will be there to contribute, catalogue and redefine not only local music but indeed the whole of Belfast and Northern Ireland.
  103. avatar tinpot anto
    BTW you probably are a member, as all it seemed to involve was registering an email address?
  104. avatar JoanneNicole
    Well put Rocky.


    It would be a waste of time tonight if it a barrage of allegations and hear say, plus to be honest I could care less about the shite load of complaints people have of the service or lack of service received.

    I too am hoping that we can develop how we can work together, move the industry here forward and ensure that NI is represented at showcase events internationally.

    It would be interesting to know the exact cause for the folding and clarity is needed here most likely through the freedom of information act, which is something that we aren’t gonna have to hand tonight, its crap that NIMIC is gone and sad people have lost their jobs, and I felt that is was a step backwards but on reflection for those of us working professionally or hoping to, its time to take charge of our own industry and not get hung up on something which is out of our control for now.

    I was in two minds about going tonight but I feel that there is light at the end of the tunnel now!
  105. avatar T Entertainment
    It's fairly clear that this can only be cleared up by the consumption of some extremely expensive and sophisticated lattés and a series of vodcasts.
  106. avatar fastfude
    I guess there are two separate threads to this:

    1) What happened, why, and was it legitimate?

    2) What next?

    I think #1 could do with being answered before #2 can be tackled properly. I don't think it's enough to just keep our heads down and get on with our own private business.
  107. avatar tinpot anto
    The problem being that if there is a question over whether NIMIC still exists as legal entity then someone is going to have to sort out the funding situation before another body can take over.

    There may be issues over clawback of INI money and such . It's a fucking mess.
  108. avatar T Entertainment
    [quote:008fa27473="fastfude"]I guess there are two separate threads to this:

    1) What happened, why, and was it legitimate?

    2) What next?

    I think #1 could do with being answered before #2 can be tackled properly. I don't think it's enough to just keep our heads down and get on with our own private business.[/quote:008fa27473]

    The hippy is right. God knows it hurt me to say that, but it's true.
  109. avatar Rocky
    NIMIC's funding was ceased, the funders have pulled the plug, and more so, witnessed
    the total shitfest that went on for a year as the news report said.

    I don't see the point in talking about it, what good will come from it?

    I can't see investment touching it after this. Anyone can see that.

    If any good can come from this, I believe that a new wave of music industry professionals,
    such as Andrew Ferris, Jimmy Devlin, Fighting With Wire, In Case Of Fire, Joe Dougan, Paul O'Shaugnessy, Production House (these are the first few that fly out of my brain) have vital knowledge and experience of actually working and servicing the music industry, should be encouraged
    to be involved.

    I'm more keen to hear the things people like that would like to see, to actually help out the music industry here.

    This inline with strong grass roots support (advice and experienced information) and education
    to non-professionals and younger people within music are some of the things I'd hope to come from this.

    I'd personally like to see a music industry professional head hunted from London/NYC/Nashville/LA or similar - with ties to Northern Ireland. Someone who truly has the experience and knowledge,
    to help music industry professionals here in a way we've never seen before.
    Below them would be a team of people (like I mentioned above) working together, with areas of expertise, developing and implementing ideas and plans.

    Some sort of open door/drop in centre for advice would definitely please the majority of people on Fastfude, where you can drop in unannounced and get help with whatever issues you need -
    This would be a full time job for one person and even then it could stretch their resources,
    but I imagine this is what most people here (non-professionals) feel was lacking from NIMIC -
    and I do think it should be addressed.

    I sometimes feel, that a new company could have more creative power, have an A&R department almost.
    Take punts on artitsts they believe in, give them unique funding.
    There are artists currently in N.Ireland, who if given money to hire a PR person, could go out and get record deals.
    This of course would open the floodgates of unfairness etc....
    Indeed why should a band who can't be bothered to hire a PR person get funding, if ASIWYFA
    have to go out and bust their balls and so on..... Not that I'd reckon ASIWYFA would share such an attitude, as they're too busy doing everything it takes to be their band.
  110. avatar RedTab
    Can anyone turn up to this meeting or do you have to be on a list?
  111. avatar Rocky
    By the way - I'm sure that's the first time since the 1970's Paul O'Shaughnessy has been called New Wave.

    Of course I see the value in learning what happened. But I have heard enough already about what happened to personally be of the opinion that overall, for me, it is a waste of time to sit around and talk about it, especially in a meeting that has been titled "what's next"

    Some people haven't heard, so they should find out. To be honest, no one will ever know quite what exactly went wrong. Even those people involved probably aren't exactly sure and by the time it's figured out, we all could have achieved something far greater.

    Nothing that's happened on the board of NIMIC, or at a lengthly bitch-fest about it will change the music currently being made by the bands, the recordings being made by the studios, the gigs being put on by the promoters.

    For the short term, what we've got is ourselves and each other and we should try to figure out the best things that can be done.

    We were all very lucky to have NIMIC, whether we realised it or not. We could be sharing a warehouse in Brooklyn with 50 smelly bearded hipster bastards and struggling to pay to get onto showcase gigs.

    I don't believe the loss of NIMIC will destroy music in Northern Ireland, indeed I hope that
    if one thing comes from this, it propels people to take responsibility for their own actions
    and work harder and to help more people out, regardless of who stood on your cat 15 years ago.

    There's not very much money in music at the moment, it is getting tougher, so the people who are still here and are postively and actively doing it are doing so for the love of what they do.

    I think what I'm saying is, that while a good solid supportive structure is fantastic and beneficial,
    there is no replacement for personal hard work and graft and ultimately, over the years,
    that's what has brought success to people in the music business.

    Part of me actually thinks that in the short term, weeding out some of the people who are not taking
    their careers seriously enough, or making them up their game and actually being useful to themselves and those around them will be a good thing to come from this.

    Of course the more grants/funds/advice around the easier it gets. But they are the car and we are the drivers and I think people forget that all too often, you can get out and walk.

    (jesus, did I really go for that whole car/driver/walk thing???)

    Maybe a separate thread for "what next" should be here and leave this for the who/what/where/when/why?
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  112. avatar dave.cava
    I've heard enough on this board and i don't think any Ex-NIMIC members are capable of ivestigating the legalities which I think need to be addressed. Neither do i eat everything I am fed. Some I just can't swallow even if i know the person doing the feeding.
    Question like Rogers deserved to be answered but they are still top soil questions.
    EPK my good friend, get yer tenner out.
    As i've said, I don't think ex-musicians/ex-nimic members/friends of the board/ex-friends of the board etc. are capable of investigating anything here. It will be just a Q n A session.
    I am now told this whole matter has indeed been drawn to the attention of those employed to investigate and apply the law.
    Good luck to them and may all your question be answered.

    http://www.cavamusic.com
  113. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:d70919a3d2]Some sort of open door/drop in centre for advice would definitely please the majority of people on Fastfude, where you can drop in unannounced and get help with whatever issues you need -[/quote:d70919a3d2]

    Sandra and Ross basically provided this function if you dropped them an email.

    As for the rest well there's a fucking question and a half.

    Do you fund the commercially viable artists regardless of musical merit, or support those making interesting music that has limited commercial appeal.

    I think both things are right, and I think one of NIMIC's flaws was that it only really backed the first sort of artist at the expense of less viable artists.

    It's an important nut to crack though.
  114. avatar fastfude
    [quote:824270532c="Rocky"]I don't see the point in talking about it, what good will come from it?[/quote:824270532c]
    Do you know something we don't here Rocky?

    We've just been disenfranchised by second-hand notice, so it's perfectly reasonable to have questions, and to expect a few answers.

    If mistakes were made they need to be corrected or at least learned from, lest the next lot just repeat it all again.
  115. avatar T Entertainment
    Yes, this is all a bit 'quit livin' in the past, Marge!' - no one has given any sort of explanation as to what happened and it's clear that the 'irreconcilable differences meant it had to fold, sorry there' line is not going to satisfy anyone.
  116. avatar EPK
    "I'd personally like to see a music industry professional head hunted from London/NYC/Nashville/LA or similar - with ties to Northern Ireland. Someone who truly has the experience and knowledge,to help music industry professionals here in a way we've never seen before."

    And to make one of my points again, add "and who will work for 20k a year."
    The money one of these people would expect would exceed the yearly budget.
    There was never remotely enough money to do anything, just to do a bit of something.
    People are still wondering how NIMIC didn't manage to produce multiple world-class successes, on a few tens of thousands of pounds spread over all genres of contemporary music, folk music, classical music and whatever.
    The most ridiculous expectations arose based on the most ridiculous nonsense.
    The organisation worked constantly on pitiful money, and did the best it could with it in as many areas as possible, primarily delivering information seminars and kick-starting careers with opportunities national and international showcasing, marketing and video production.
    There are many organisations still extant doing a fraction of that work for many times more funding, mainly because they're so low key that few people know they even exist.
    NIMIC needed a budget of £1 million or more. Most years I was there NIMIC hadn't much more than a tenth of that. Take out three salaries and renting and running an office and there's peanuts left.
    All the wish-lists that we see are subject to one thing. Money.
    And there was simply no money.
    Was that NIMIC's fault?
    No. That blame goes to government and funding organisations.
    They didn't think the music industry was worth funding, and so they didn't seriously do it.
    So, take the wishlists and lobby your political representative with them.
    And Dave, I don't think the cops will be able to get the NIMIC staff.
    I hear they're all in the Bahamas living it up.
  117. avatar stevieo
    I agree with you there Anto about NIMIC backing only a certain type of artist. Maybe Im wrong but they were publicly funded and should see everyone. The problem is bigger than NIMIC
    [url=http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/invest-ni-payments-referred-to-watchdog-14548785.html]Belfast Telegraph[/url]
    [url=http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0929/northjobs.html]RTE news report
    [/url]
  118. avatar fastfude
    As EPK says above, you could be all things to all people if you have the investment, but the realpolitik is that doesn't (and will never) exist in sufficient quantity, so you have to pick and choose. This will be the same for any future organisations too.
  119. avatar Rocky
    Roger & Chris - I'm with you guys.

    I think there is value and worth in finding out what happened.
    I don't personally feel like I deserve to know what happened though, indeed I'm not overly interested in wasting any more of my time to find out more than what I have, I've heard enough to satisfy that NIMIC as it stood wasn't going to work out and indeed it's relevance to actually helping the music industry in NI was vastly reduced a result of these issues stifling it.

    I don't believe I know more than either of you guys, or anyone that I've spoken to about it.

    If you have issues with what happened and are unhappy with how your organisation has been folded up
    and you believe it's the wrong decision for music in Northern Ireland, you should all contact Invest NI, Art's Council, BCC -as they are seeking "others with similar testimonials to make their voices known" - this is from a correspondence I had with them (invest NI) last week.

    I simply approached them with an introduction to who I was, what I do and my opinions and concerns with the situation and my interests in how I'd like to see things move forward within music in Northern Ireland.

    I would hope that everyone with views and opinions on what's happened and how to move forward
    and approaching these bodies with their professional views and concerns and not just posting on Fastfude about it. This is like talking to your mates in a pub, the other approach is a response to the issue.

    I do think people need to know what happened and an investigation would be great.

    What I'm saying is that, taking responsibility for the industry I work in - and working harder at it,
    and helping out all the other people who work in it right now, I believe will do more benefit,
    will get more bands together, more records made, more bands signed, more people working in the industry - than pouring time and no doubt lots of money into the death of NIMIC.
  120. avatar Rocky
    EPK, I'm totally aware of what NIMIC achieved with what funding.
    It's why I thought Ross & Sandra did a great job.

    It's why I accepted that they could only ever assist bands who were already achieving by themselves initially, they didn't have the finances, or people, to really break a new band - though they tried when they could. NIMIC assisted professionals working in the industry in the ways it could,
    it also tried to bring along as many non professionals for the ride as it could - and I think they did a good job and they certainly helped in me becoming a full time musician.

    I was just stating, what's next - that would be the dream scenario, although in truth,
    could such a position be justified for such a small country and small music scene?
    Why not, it'd be fantastic for us all.
  121. avatar EPK
    More guff.
    I'm missing something in those reports.
    One is about payments to companies linked to Board members.
    NIMIC directors receive no payment, and were actually excluded from making any applications for their own interests whilst in office.
    In fact we had members leaving the Board when they realised that they couldn't apply for stuff for themselves.
    The other is about a multi-million pound quango wasting money by the bucketful whilst coining it in salaries.
    There's no comparison.
    As for concentrating on "a type" of performer, that's also rubbish.
    Support was given to rock, indie, folk, electronic, dance, classical and choral music, many of which were of very limited popular appeal.
    The nature of the Board was that there was representation from across the spectrum of music in N. Ireland.
    Ultimately, I think that if people didn't see what they liked, the organisation was invalid.
    However, as Rocky says, it's time to move on.
    It'll be interesting to see if there's any more info about the break-up and its legality, and there are still questions to be answered about the election process.
    However, the wheels are off the bus and the engine is busted, and it isn't going to go just because we all still have tickets.
  122. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    [quote:14f2eff3d4="tinpot anto"][quote:14f2eff3d4]Some sort of open door/drop in centre for advice would definitely please the majority of people on Fastfude, where you can drop in unannounced and get help with whatever issues you need -[/quote:14f2eff3d4]Do you fund the commercially viable artists regardless of musical merit, or support those making interesting music that has limited commercial appeal.

    I think both things are right, and I think one of NIMIC's flaws was that it only really backed the first sort of artist at the expense of less viable artists.

    It's an important nut to crack though.[/quote:14f2eff3d4]

    Ok, my post maybe isn't all that relevant to the NIMIC issue, but I want to state it anyway, maybe it can generate some more controversy here.

    This imbalance between money generating content and interesting/"new" content is one of the largest problems I see with the Arts Council and Government Funding In general. I mean, for example, take a look at the Ulster Orchestra. They get lots of funding each year, only to have (in my opinion) "boring" musical directors programme the same old conservative repertoire year after year. About the most exciting thing one can expect to hear from them is Mahler or something like that. Very little consideration is given to new works/more abstract works - It seems like you kind of have to go to Eastern Europe to hear this kind of thing. It's a clear example of the fact that councils expect to get some kind of return on their funding and only the acts that garner enough monetary incentive (ie mentally static audience members that are satisfied by the same thing year after year) continue to receive grants/large sums year on year. I EXPECT to see this from record companies and private corporations, because their sole GOAL is to GENERATE MONEY. However, it's pathetic to see it from a body that purports to support new artistic endeavours in Northern Ireland, when really it seems like they're just giving the record companies an extra bit of help.

    Same thing happens within the popular music vein - it's a contributing factor to peoples' continuation of the same old approach and (I think) helps fuel the belief of "making it" or whatever. Of course, the fact that so many bands generally lack ingenuity in the way they present themselves (on a stage, in a bar/venue, attempting to give a subtle nuance to their version of peddling the same old rock) is also a major factor in this - it works both ways. Until a large number of musicians seek to do something ideologically different to what "the industry" has come to expect of them, I guess we can't really complain if more funding gets given to "commercially viable "artists"" than to creators/appreciators of "interesting music".

    I suppose maybe I am just sick of the notion of "the music industry" in general, and am sorry for the fact that more people don't feel that way. I guess you see the same kind of anger and disappointment in lots of music (eg punk) but the people involved in it don't see that they're just another facet of that which they appear to want to oppose.

    And no, I'm not some big Marxist weighing in with my fixed ideological views "strait out' the manifesto", I just think there is the potential for interesting development/change if we consider things in these kinds of ways....


    Oh and I'm not at all sad to see NIMIC go, obviously. Feel sorry for the fact that it might mean some people are out of a job though, that kind of sucks.

    Take care. Let me know if you think this post is bullshit etc.
  123. avatar EPK
    I pretty much agree with you there, Rocky, but we had our chance and it was only a matter of time before it failed...primarily thru lack of vision and investment.
    But you're absolutely right, Rocky, NIMIC could only really help those who were already helping themselves, were committed and showing the drive to succeed.
    That's where its strength lay...helping and advising those bands needing the extra money to make a video or a showcasing opportunity viable for themselves.
    When it started people expected that NIMIC would go round the doors handing out instruments and tourbuses to musicians, giving them PAs and a place to practice before booking the Albert Hall.
    The bands who benefited most were already up and doing things, organised, networking and planning ahead. You really got to help yourself to get anywhere.
  124. avatar T Entertainment
    "It's a clear example of the fact that councils expect to get some kind of return on their funding and only the acts that garner enough monetary incentive (ie mentally static audience members that are satisfied by the same thing year after year) continue to receive grants/large sums year on year. I EXPECT to see this from record companies and private corporations, because their sole GOAL is to GENERATE MONEY. However, it's pathetic to see it from a body that purports to support new artistic endeavours in Northern Ireland, when really it seems like they're just giving the record companies an extra bit of help."

    Hang on, I would say the ONLY justification for spending public money, you know money taken out of people's hard earned pay packets, is with the intention of fostering economic growth.
    You are aware that the 'I' in NIMIC stands for 'Industry'?
    Why, pray tell, should our taxes support 'abstract' arts unless they are also going to at least have a chance of generating more income for the economy?
  125. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    [quote:7172b0b9b3="T Entertainment"]Hang on, I would say the ONLY justification for spending public money, you know money taken out of people's hard earned pay packets, is with the intention of fostering economic growth.
    You are aware that the 'I' in NIMIC stands for 'Industry'?
    Why, pray tell, should our taxes support 'abstract' arts unless they are also going to at least have a chance of generating more income for the economy?[/quote:7172b0b9b3]

    Consider for a moment, the idea that "generating more income for the economy" is possibly not the most rewarding way we can spend our lives.

    I for one don't think I would mind paying a portion of my "income" each year towards funding "abstract" (if we take that term as meaning "having a truly engaging and unorthodox aproach) arts because I know that my mental development from going to and experiencing them would probably be changed in new and interesting ways. I think that this is a major problem in the "appreciation of the arts" in general - people always seem disappointed if they think that they haven't "gotten their money's worth" after a performance, rather than accepting it for what is was and enjoying the fact that it has probably, in one way or anything, changed how they think about something, and how they feel about something.

    I know that this experience is something I truly value - the little satories in life that provoke thought or feeling. I guess though, at the end of the day, you are right - most people DON'T value this, which is why things are the way they are. I'm not trying to say that I AM RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG - I'm just trying to encourage a little bit of thought (and discussion) that questions the reasoning behind our current state of affairs, that's all.
  126. avatar dave.cava
    EPK: wrote

    [i:9e5c4515fb]"And Dave, I don't think the cops will be able to get the NIMIC staff.
    I hear they're all in the Bahamas living it up."
    [/i:9e5c4515fb]

    Don,t think the Keystone Cops will be busting any meetings soon but i think you may be surprised at the attention this fiasco has attracted outside this board already and I hope it continues.
    Also as Roger says question #1 must be answered first.
    As for certain people hypothetically being in the Bahamas? At least the sun would be shining on them, as opposed to out of there asses, as some people constantly seem to be blinded by here.

    "Dont stop thinking about tommorrow
    Dont stop it'll soon be here
    It'll be here better than before.... blah, blah."

    Rosebud. Over and out.

    http://www.cavamusic.com
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  127. avatar MSB Mastering
    I think the focus here has shifted somewhat from what I think we should be looking into:
    1) Why were there problems?
    2) Can NIMIC just be wrapped up just like that: Surely an E.G.M. would need to be called. How much notice does that require? Surely staff also need to be given notice. And informing members wouldn't have been a stretch prior to us learning about this on the news. Now, I wasn't informed of anything until I learned it here, but then again, I wasn't informed of an AGM either.

    If you disagree with what NIMIC was doing, who it was funding etc. etc., stand for election and try to change it. That's how it should work. There's no point moaning about it.
  128. avatar kingstreetarts
    The contact hypothesis

    In psychology and sociology, the contact hypothesis is a way of improving relations among groups that are experiencing conflict. Gordon W. Allport (1954) is credited with the development of the Contact Hypothesis, also known as Intergroup Contact Theory. The premise of Allport's theory states that under appropriate conditions interpersonal contact is one of the most effective ways to reduce prejudice between majority and minority group members.[1] Issues of stereotyping, prejudice, and discrimination are commonly occurring issues between rival groups. Allport's proposal was that properly managed contact between the groups should reduce these problems and lead to better interactions.
    In order for this to occur, the following must be present:
    Equal Status,
    both groups taken into an equal status relationship,
    Cooperative Activity, both groups work on a problem/task and share this as a common goal,
    sometimes called a superordinate goal,( In this case the NI music industry)
    Personal Interaction,
    the task must be structured so that individual members of both groups are interdependent on each other to achieve this common goal,
    Social Norms,
    some authority that both groups acknowledge and define social norms that support the contact and interactions between the groups and members.


    Some off the so called "break down" has been technical some can be attributed to a lack off transparency by key members of the board. All of this can be discussed in a civilised manner if so wished . If the agenda tonight is Where we go from here? Im up for offering ideas.
    Hope who ever is there will come in the Spirit of co-operation and forward thinking.
    Lets begin to settle down and be open to what other people have to say.
  129. avatar The Fires of Hell
    [quote:1147aa6e1c]They get lots of funding each year, only to have (in my opinion) "boring" musical directors programme the same old conservative repertoire year after year. About the most exciting thing one can expect to hear from them is Mahler or something like that. Very little consideration is given to new works/more abstract works - It seems like you kind of have to go to Eastern Europe to hear this kind of thing.[/quote:1147aa6e1c]

    Hors D'Oeurves, that's wild off the mark. Two things. As T Ents points out, money directed to the UO is entirely valid because of the amount it recoups and generates off the back of it.

    That amount may not equal its subsidy - but the Ulster Hall is packed to capacity for almost any performance. That's to say nothing of the young musicians being taught by them every week. Those musical skills are transferrable and are essentially guiding the next generation of indie, rock and classical musicians. It's possible only because of their funding.

    Arguing against the funding given to the UO is arguing against full time salaried musicians - which I presume most whingers here would give their arm to be?

    Also, regarding their repertoire. Only weeks ago the UO did a very avantgarde recital featuring new music from Bill Campbell - which basically involved the UO reinterpreting Weather Report. Which, all things considered, is actually a lot braver than even Mahler.
  130. avatar tinpot anto
    Ok lets try phasing it like this.

    And please bear in mind this is an argument on point of principle and not meant as an analogy for the situation or circumstance of any local acts.

    You have £2000 do you give it to Mark E Smith to record an EP with the Fall or do you give it to The Feeling to fly to SXSW?
  131. avatar remaderyan
    This has been a real shitty development...

    I think its a fair policy of any organisation to prioritise funds to where they are going to stand the best chance of success. Would you give every DSB £100 or would you spend 20k to give someone who has proven themselves to get a chance of real tangible success?

    I fear for the long term future of 'the industry' here, yes you maybe need to make a distinction between people trying to make a proper fulltime career and those what wish they were a rockstar, i know which category I fell into.. Both are valid in the context of local music but I think its pretty clear which ones need the funding. Does that explain the 'they havent helped me' view?
    I would worry that this body or a body similar not existing might put someone off that path to getting themselves somewhere, how much talent is going to turn to something mundane, such as IT or working in the civil service instead of making people happy with their creative work? it'd be a shame if someone didnt feel they should give it a go just because the support isnt there.

    There will always be people from here who make it, there were those before and there will be some after.. but it'd be a pity that the local scene is so full of infighting and bickering that its maybe shot itself in the foot? If all this energy that has been spent over the years fighting with each other over the most mundane of topics... Perhaps this body which has done a lot of work, everyone will agree that it was better in existance than out of it.... maybe this just sums up everything that is wrong with the NI music scene.

    I'd always regretted taking a job in a non-musical industry, instead I kept it as a hobby... but this topic has made me finally not regret it...because a)I'd now be afloat in a small boat in a big sea with no support and b) We're a bunch of argumentative cunts full of petty jealousies and egos that are getting in the way of talent and progress. EPK I agree 100% with your posts.


    *SIGH*
  132. avatar superfreakz
    Just read the first few posts and are we talking about the same nimic? Anytime we or anyone else we know personally asked for any sort of help or assistance the door wasnt even answered never mind slammed in our faces. In my and so many others peoples minds (who have the balls to say it) it was never about the music it was about salary! And know I hear they are looking to reform as somethin different so that government salary is still available. In my opinion the the job of championing local talent needs to given to someone who actually cares.


    Mark
  133. avatar EPK
    I personally saw Ross Graham push a ladder off the window containing the complete membership of two bands plus a DJ, just because he didn't like their haircuts and couldn't be bothered opening the door, the bastard.
    And I know someone who heard someone saying they're nearly sure they saw Sandra in a Swiss bank one day converting her wages into Krugerrands and gold bullion, and that's a fact.
    It's certainly all about the salaries, and the fact the Board didn't actually get any salary is just a cynical diversion to steer us all away from that fact.
    I also think it should be in the hands of someone who cares, like a sort of musical Mother Teresa.
    Someone who could set up a refuge for the terminally misinformed.
  134. avatar Rocky
    I felt that was a positive meeting of a half decent mix of a very small amount of people.
    I enjoyed meeting with some people I've never spoken to and hearing their points of view,
    while different from mine, it was enlightening and I have a greater understanding of
    them as music industry professionals as a result.

    It's good to talk!
  135. avatar MSB Mastering
    Agreed.
  136. avatar EPK
    Well, at least the money can now help fund [i:caee38e579]real[/i:caee38e579] music.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8363184.stm
  137. avatar russell
    Sorry that I couldn't make it to the meeting tonight (had rehearsals booked in). Would someone mind writing up any outcomes of the meeting please? I'd like to know what we (as an industry) are planning to do, as I'd like to help out in any way I can - so let me know if there's anything I can do.

    Thanks,
    Russell
    [url=http://www.resonate-studio.com/]Resonate[/url]
  138. avatar dave.cava
    According to their website.
    Awarded to NIMIC by the Arts Council alone, [b:8cfa4ae46d]from around September last year?[/b:8cfa4ae46d]

    [b:8cfa4ae46d]PROGRAMME TYPE[/b:8cfa4ae46d]/ [b:8cfa4ae46d]EXCHEQUER[/b:8cfa4ae46d]

    Creative Industries / £98,750.00

    Creative Industries / £87,000.00

    A.S.O.P / £20,000.00

    [b:8cfa4ae46d]TOTAL[/b:8cfa4ae46d] [b:8cfa4ae46d]£205,750.00[/b:8cfa4ae46d] (not including salaried positions available to [b:8cfa4ae46d]some[/b:8cfa4ae46d], or other funding?)



    http://www.cavamusic.com
  139. avatar Deadlights
    That is quite a sum of money, considering there was talk yesterday of them only having a few thousand each year in funding to play with?
  140. avatar fastfude
    CIIF is only new this year, so they wouldn't have had that before. It's also for specific projects, it can't just be sloshed around.

    Here's all the awards: http://www.artscouncil-ni.org/news/2009/Files/CIIFAwardedtoDate.pdf

    And that's a pretty small amount of ASOP for such an org. The Nerve Centre got nearly ten times that. Northern Ireland Piping & Drumming School got nearly three times that.

    ACNI seem to have included 09/10 ASOP awards in their 08/09 Excel sheet: http://www.artscouncil-ni.org/award/recent/awards_2008-2009.xls
  141. avatar churchwarden
    [quote:d7327af6a2="fastfude"]

    ACNI seem to have included 09/10 ASOP awards in their 08/09 Excel sheet: http://www.artscouncil-ni.org/award/recent/awards_2008-2009.xls[/quote:d7327af6a2]

    It is awards made in 2008-2009. The excel sheet gives the finance year when the award will be spent, which may be for a later year:

    [url=http://www.artscouncil-ni.org/award/recent/funding.htm]recent funding decisions[/url]
  142. avatar pennydistribution
    Russel - a wrap up of what was talked about at the meeting last night will be emailed around to anyone who's interested in hearing about it. PM me your email and I'll make sure you get a copy of the notes - that goes for anyone else on here who's interested in what was talked about.

    It's good to talk, indeed. It's easy to not, though.
  143. avatar Deadlights
    Was there anything mentioned about a successor? Something to fill the void left by the departure of NIMIC?

    Steve
  144. avatar fastfude
    Since it involves everyone in NI music how about posting it online? Was the audio recording done?
  145. avatar pennydistribution
    [quote:6a10719900]Since it involves everyone in NI music how about posting it online? Was the audio recording done?[/quote:6a10719900]

    good thinking. will post a link as soon as something's done, and I'll look into posting the audio too.
  146. avatar T Entertainment
    Yes please, I'd like to hear it too. And it's very easily done.
  147. avatar kingstreetarts
    I went to the meeting it was cordial and informative thank you to all who where there and thanks to Jan and folk for calling it..It didn't realy deal with the issues relating to nimic...there needs to be a meeting of nimic members to sort that out and im calling for one now..!Im available any time

    EPK could you ask Ross OR John Edmund for a copy of that independent legal advice you are so sure about and let me and everyone else here have a copy? Im sure they will be just busting to get it into the public domain m8 to clear the whole thing up, they will get a copy for you no problem right?  or maybe their assurances are good enough....Think! .....im being petty here?

    if its too short notice to get a copy today, ....... 2morro will do .........or the next day .........or the next day or perhaps its asking too much to see it full stop. Hows about some openness and transparency

    Oh and dont forget the report by Richard Harrison of Queens on the NI music business that they are trying to bury. It has been paid for in full by NIMIC on behalf of its members (who at this point legally own it). No egm as yet, to close nimic down. so we the members own it, right?

    can you get a copy of the report from Ross and John Edmund? Good luck with that.

    Heres the link for Richard Harrisons contact details, you can contact him here if Ross and John Edmund are TOO BUSY doin other important things - http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/QueensUniversityManagementSchool/Research/ResearchClusters/ManagementandOrganisation/Staff/ProfessorRichardHarrison/

    Its all very uncomfortable isn't it EPK..... for some people.

    but sure im just maybe a bit naive and probably dont understand all the complexities off all off this ..... right?

    and before you answer this post.  My questions are pretty clear so try and show me some respect by answering them directly.

    or maybe you just "dont know" ....... or care ....... that all us silly "terminally misinformed" populous actually SEE these documents for ourselves.

    Im sure We peasants can make up our own minds.

    or maybe I along with a lot of the other mis informed people need to wind our necks in ...or disengage our brains ehh
    You know whats going on here . Where are these people why not give us the information . Ill meet any off these guys any time to discuss these matters . Maybe you can arrange that ..
    Thank you.
    Joby
  148. avatar fastfude
    Rich posted this earlier: http://www.rich9.co.uk/whats-next-for-ni-music

    not much noise about it on the [url=http://twitter.com/fastfude/fastfuders]fastfuders twitter list[/url]:
    Nick: http://twitter.com/pennydist/statuses/5774513988
  149. avatar EPK
    First of all, Joby, wind your neck in.
    You wouldn't talk to me in person like that, you've known me over 30 years.
    I was dealing with that bog-awful post specifically.
    Now, you know me, you know that I'll call it like it is and blame whoever I think is at fault.Which I've decided on in the light of the evidence I've seen.

    I'll deal with your issues one at a time:

    "Oh and dont forget the report by Richard Harrison of Queens on the NI music business that they are trying to bury. It has been paid for in full by NIMIC on behalf of its members (who at this point legally own it).

    Wrong, wrong and wrong.
    The report was commissioned..and owned..jointly by the Arts Council and INI.
    The "burying" you're being told about is because it's still at first draft stage.
    It isn't nearly finished, and no-one has yet seen it within NIMIC, nor will they unless that permission is freed by the two ownership organisations.
    That clear things up?

    Secondly, Jobe... hows about you go and get that report yourself?
    Since you don't believe NIMIC, and you don't believe the independent accountants doing the tallying, and you don't believe the legal advice, why would you believe me?
    It's maybe a good time to cut the chain and do it yourself. That way you can at last be satisfied, and hopefully move on.

    "No egm as yet, to close nimic down. so we the members own it, right?"

    Up to a point.
    NIMIC was both a membership organisation and a limited company. Once funding was withdrawn and ran out the company could no longer operate, and at the final Board meeting..a fully quorate meeting...the resolution to wind-up was moved and passed.
    This is because all Articles of Association...the NIMIC Constitution....are still subservient to the law, and as a company under The Insolvency Act 1986 it would have been illegal to continue operation while insolvent as a company, with liability falling on the Board and on members. I've accepted that.

    I enquired about the election process and the vote handling.
    The process included dealing with the proxy votes by the accountants.
    When two votes were handed in by people...a vote and a proxy..they were examined and at all times..unsurprisingly....were always for the same person. One went into one pile, and one went into another. How do we know that?
    That process revealed that one set of individuals who legally had two votes..one membership and one corporate...tried to pass on three votes, and one was therefore discounted.
    Those votes were kept in separate sections all the way through the process until they were deposited with the solicitors, who made the final judgement.

    Joby, don't shoot the messenger, but I do think you lost the election.
    The circumstances were not good, and the drawn-out process must have exacerbated your feelings, but it happens, even nationally.
    This entire dispute is not because you lost, but because your losing foiled an entire attempted coup, which if it had been carried out according to the rules, would have succeeded.
    It's unfair to keep you in the middle of this, because I feel that's your purpose, and why you're being told things to keep this going.
    I had rows as a matter of course during my time in NIMIC..real stand-up fights, but when I lost I accepted it and set down to work behind the agreed resolution. That's democracy.
    In this case an inability to do that has lead to the undermining of NIMIC to the point it couldn't work. That's a disgrace.
    I respect you as a person and a musician. What happened here has resulted in a blow to musicians everywhere, and a whole question mark hangs over the future here.
    I'd be happy to work with you anywhere to change that for the benefit of both you and the music community here, which I've worked to do for years now, and for f**k all.

    Dave...see that "Creative Industries / £87,000.00"
    That IS a lot of money, isn't it?
    Musicians could do a lot with that, couldn't you?


    Well...that money was LOST as a result of this debacle.
    That would have made a lot of difference to some bands needing help today, and which they won't get. That's the real tragedy of this. That might not happen again.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  150. avatar flackmeister
    I was at the meting last night and while I didn’t say much of anything there are a few things that I believe need considered before we move on. If there is independent legal advice on winding up NIMIC then this absolutely needs to be in the public domain, the same thing can be said for the report by Richard Harrison of Queens.

    I would suggest that in terms of governance and what DCAL, InvestNi and others are likely to look for in a funded sectoral body or representative organisation, NIMIC was no such thing. It wasn’t a membership organisation and it wasn’t a representative organisation.

    I’ve just done a search on their site for membership information, it doesn’t exist. If I wanted to join NIMIC I’m under the impression that all I had to do was add my email to a list, that’s not membership that’s newsletter subscription. I’m also led to believe that a meeting held to dissolve membership was inquoarate in the last couple of years, if they had such little regard for the ’membership’ that they wanted to jettison it at that point then they simply won’t give a shit now.

    I truly believe that the sector should do all it can to salvage as much of the useful stuff that has been outlined to date, but I don’t believe that if the board have gone so far down the road of winding up they’ll be in a position to consider the views of the ‘membership’. Or that they’ll care.

    If NIMIC doesn’t exist as a legal entity, and I’m guessing that’s the case at this point, then everything that went with that, including 'membership', ceases to exist. I believe that spending a great deal of time speaking as disgruntled members is, in my humble opinion, all a bit pointless and defeatest.

    Coming together as a single collective with a view to looking at the needs of the sector and forging a way forward without screaming about membership will be considerably more beneficial in terms of engaging Govt, ACNI, DCAL et al.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  151. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:d61f5a1d9a]What happened here has resulted in a blow to musicians everywhere, and a whole question mark hangs over the future here[/quote:d61f5a1d9a]

    Bit dramatic, no?

    I'm pretty sure we're still all gonna be making music - those of us who actually make music, rather than sitting on committees.

    I mean, fair enough, it's a blow that there's no longer a funded organisation to develop the "music industry". I'm sure that will affect some "music industry professionals" who apparently depend on government funding to be professional.

    Many many many more musicians will not be affected one way or the other, and that's the truth of the matter. I certainly won't be affected in any way shape or form. Condolences to those of you who now won't be able to afford to go to SXSW. Maybe you should start saving your wages from your job as a music industry professional and take yourself over.
  152. avatar EPK
    [quote:789e68a12e="fastfude"]Rich posted this earlier: [url=http://www.rich9.co.uk/whats-next-for-ni-music]http://www.rich9.co.uk/whats-next-for-ni-music[/url]
    [/quote:789e68a12e]

    Rich has written a pretty good article there, and touched on what went wrong at NIMIC.
    We'd essentially got to the end of a Strategic Plan, and the next one was being formulated.
    A few years ago Shep and I had sat down and looked at a future strategy, and one of the things we both were keen about was NIMIC as an umbrella organisation, with many separate periphery interest groups feeding into the centre, helping to advise the central body formulate and implement policy that would help them achieve their goals.

    At the end of NIMIC one interest group decided that they would change the organisation's focus, shifting it away from the creative end...the musicians...and redirecting it to service providers.
    That's essentially where this all went wrong, as the methodology for that brought conflict and the split that made the organisation unworkable.
    So, the identification of this differential by Rich even at last night's meeting is interesting.
    I believe that there has to be a co-existence of these two elements for an industry to succeed, and that co-existence has to include a mutual support, because despite arrogance on both sides, neither can really exist successfully without the other.

    And Marty, if you're happy just sitting there making music, good for you.
    Nothing wrong with that.
    The SXSW, MIDEM and other opportunities are there for people who maybe do want something more. That's recognised in the music industry globally as a necessity.
    That was being given on an annual basis here, open to anyone wanting to take it up.
    You don't think that the loss of opportunity for marketing, licensing, management, touring and recording deals is important, that's a unique view that I guess wouldn't be shared by many.
    I was actually at SXSW one year...working, not with NIMIC...and the thrill of watching one previously little-known guy from here deal with a bidding war from three major labels after he'd done his gig was great.
  153. avatar fastfude
    So is this an accurate summary as to the 'why' question?

    1) NIMIC board can't function as factions within it try to pull in opposite directions
    2) Funders pull support because board can't function
    3) Company legally required to close down in the absence of operating funds
  154. avatar Audioperm
    feck i thought jobys post was quite clear

    His questions were

    1. Is he gettin a copy of the legal advice or not?

    2. Can he/we have a copy of a report that was paid for by NIMIC from money they got from the ciif fund?

    when you are warded money from ciif. the arts council dont go out and buy the gear for you or pay for the bits and pieces you need. They give you the money and you go and order up the bits and pieces yourself.

    It would be highly unusual for this not to be the case.

    U ALSO SEEM TO BE TELLIN JOBY WHAT HAPPENED AT AN AGM YOU DIDNT ATTEND.

    JOBY WAS THERE AND YOU WERENT SEEMS TO BE THE CASE.

    Maybe your buddiess could post the info themselves?

    Its a big hole ur diggin.
  155. avatar Major Disaster
    "Brothers, we should be struggling together!"
    "We are! urghh!"
    "No, we should be united against a common enemy!"
    "THE JUDEAN PEOPLES FRONT?!!"
  156. avatar paperlanterns
    surely the infighting seen here is the same kind of infighting that brought nimic down...maybe im wrong but should we not all be pulling together here and actually trying to make something of our local artists rather than bitching about a fucking election...grow up
  157. avatar pauldoherty
    [quote:0ac461323d]And Marty, if you're happy just sitting there making music, good for you.
    Nothing wrong with that.
    The SXSW, MIDEM and other opportunities are there for people who maybe do want something more. That's recognised in the music industry globally as a necessity.
    That was being given on an annual basis here, open to anyone wanting to take it up.
    You don't think that the loss of opportunity for marketing, licensing, management, touring and recording deals is important, that's a unique view that I guess wouldn't be shared by many.
    [/quote:0ac461323d]

    But SXSW and such can still be achieved without NIMIC and am sure it has in the past for local acts here, we(the Vals) have been involved in many similar things without the help of such organisations and hope to take part in some capacity at the next SXSW.
    I dont think it has been depended on as much as mentioned here, but I can agree that they have helped out in some cases.
    Is all this really worth all the fuss though?
    Its all about the work of rate bands/acts etc, these organisations only get involved at certain stages I think and are not totally depended on.....or something like that.

    Carry on regardless I say.....if you work hard enough you'll get there anyway.
  158. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    [quote:1217beab0d="Chi-Lite"][quote:1217beab0d]What happened here has resulted in a blow to musicians everywhere, and a whole question mark hangs over the future here[/quote:1217beab0d]

    Bit dramatic, no?

    I'm pretty sure we're still all gonna be making music - those of us who actually make music, rather than sitting on committees.

    I mean, fair enough, it's a blow that there's no longer a funded organisation to develop the "music industry". I'm sure that will affect some "music industry professionals" who apparently depend on government funding to be professional.

    Many many many more musicians will not be affected one way or the other, and that's the truth of the matter. I certainly won't be affected in any way shape or form. Condolences to those of you who now won't be able to afford to go to SXSW. Maybe you should start saving your wages from your job as a music industry professional and take yourself over.[/quote:1217beab0d]

    Well said, and I agree....I think it's awful to see our common humane concept of "music" become degraded to such a point where it becomes yet another facet of heartless industry. Although, that seems like an alien point of view to most people within this thread/discussion, so I think I'll take a bow and let y'all get on with your argument. Good luck to all of those who wish to "do something "more"" with "their music". :) Peace.
  159. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:1572614d62]And Marty, if you're happy just sitting there making music, good for you.
    Nothing wrong with that.[/quote:1572614d62]

    Oh, it's not that. Just that the NIMIC, after all is said and done, only offered opportunities to a small number of people making music. Most others go about it off their own bat. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the selection (and I have no idea how NIMIC decided which bands it would help), the fact is that many many more musicians go and do those things off their own bat than go and do it with the support of NIMIC. Cava, for instance, have been very successful, and if Dave is to be believed, have had no help from NIMIC.

    So the idea that because that funding will no longer be available means that the entire music scene in Ireland will come crashing down is nonsense, as it will have no effect on the vast majority of musicians. and not just musicians who have no wish to do anything more - plenty of musicians do lots more, but without the help of NIMIC - and will continue to do so.

    I just think you are all getting carried away with its importance, that's all. As far as I can see it will be missed by those who benefitted from it, and those who didn't won't know any different.


    "That was being given on an annual basis here, open to anyone wanting to take it up."

    Well, open to anyone who wanted to apply. again, I'm not sure how selection processes were carried out - do any members know? - but plenty of people who weren't selected or didn't apply have still managed to get on and do stuff - and still will.


    [quote:1572614d62]You don't think that the loss of opportunity for marketing, licensing, management, touring and recording deals is important, that's a unique view that I guess wouldn't be shared by many.[/quote:1572614d62]

    Any loss of an opportunity is regrettable. but It's no more than the loss of an opportunity for a very limited amount of musicians. It won't bring music in NI crashing down, because the vast majority of musicians, for whatever reasons, wouldn't have reaped the benefits of that opportunity anyway.

    I just think it's being overblown, and that those who have benefitted in the past from the organisation have an interest in blowing the consequences of its folding way out of proportion in the hope of a similar body being given funding, it seems to me.

    So All I am saying is that, for all those people for whom the loss of NIMIC really will make a difference to their careers, there are many many more people - people working as musicians, not just pleb amateurs - to whom it will make sweet fuck all difference - me included.
  160. avatar exitonline
    [quote:5f317e95f7="pauldoherty"]But SXSW and such can still be achieved without NIMIC and am sure it has in the past for local acts here, we(the Vals) have been involved in many similar things without the help of such organisations and hope to take part in some capacity at the next SXSW.
    I dont think it has been depended on as much as mentioned here, but I can agree that they have helped out in some cases.
    Is all this really worth all the fuss though?
    Its all about the work of rate bands/acts etc, these organisations only get involved at certain stages I think and are not totally depended on.....or something like that.

    Carry on regardless I say.....if you work hard enough you'll get there anyway.[/quote:5f317e95f7]

    I have to agree with this. I have read through a good chuck of whats been said on this thread and I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is. I don't really want to get into a slagging match about what NIMIC has or hasn't done in the past. All I can say is that most of the times we approached them for help or funding we just get either no replies or little or no help. We did meet once and were promised all sorts, contacts etc and never heard a word back, even after pestering to get a certain contact we were promised. We are not the only band I have spoke to with similar responses. Ok, the seminars etc were a great networking chance so I suppose this was something NIMIC done well. But I really don't see how its the death of the countries "music-industry" which is still in its infancy anyway.

    It all comes down to how hard individual bands are willing to work to achieve what they want and not depend on a government body etc to fund or help them. We have done international showcases etc and asked for funding from NIMIC but still had to fund the trips ourselves anyway. So for us its no real loss seeing NIMIC fold...we had to work hard before and will continue to do so. SXSW etc can all achieved by applying, bands really don't have to depend on NIMIC etc to get there..granted it was easier for some bands as they tended to go over as part of NIMIC's own showcase event at SXSW. You never know maybe another organisation will take over from NIMIC.
  161. avatar Recycled Alien
    What happened to the people employed by NIMIC? Did they get a final pay packet? Are they entitled to redundancy money or similar?
  162. avatar EPK
    [quote:be05ffd5e7="Audioperm"]feck i thought jobys post was quite clear

    His questions were

    1. Is he gettin a copy of the legal advice or not?

    2. Can he/we have a copy of a report that was paid for by NIMIC from money they got from the ciif fund?

    when you are warded money from ciif. the arts council dont go out and buy the gear for you or pay for the bits and pieces you need. They give you the money and you go and order up the bits and pieces yourself.

    It would be highly unusual for this not to be the case.

    U ALSO SEEM TO BE TELLIN JOBY WHAT HAPPENED AT AN AGM YOU DIDNT ATTEND.

    JOBY WAS THERE AND YOU WERENT SEEMS TO BE THE CASE.

    Maybe your buddiess could post the info themselves?

    Its a big hole ur diggin.[/quote:be05ffd5e7]



    Boy, there are some slow learners that can't seem to read.

    1. Go back and read my answer
    2. Go back and read my answer
    3. I was asked to find out by Joby and MSB how the balloting was done. That's the answer.
    Anything of your own to add in vaguely literate terms?


    "Oh, it's not that. Just that the NIMIC, after all is said and done, only offered opportunities to a small number of people making music."

    No. They offered the opportunity to all those that could be bothered applying.
    Horse, water, drink etc etc.


    The staff who lost their jobs were put on the mandatory 30 day notice and paid a final month's salary, from what I can gather.

    Rog's summary is pretty correct.
    The report question has been answered.
    The election question has been answered.
    The EGM and windup question has been answered.
    And I'm not going round in any more circles for lazy latecomers.
  163. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:425b527a91="EPK"]["Oh, it's not that. Just that the NIMIC, after all is said and done, only offered opportunities to a small number of people making music."

    No. They offered the opportunity to all those that could be bothered applying.
    Horse, water, drink etc etc.[/quote:425b527a91]

    Yes, i wasn't quite clear. Only a very small number of applicants would have been selected to benefit, is what i meant. As i say, I've no idea what their selection process was, but obviously everybody who applied for the opportunity to, for example, recieve assistance to travel to SXSW, wasn't going to receive it. And, of all those who weren't selected, or who didn't apply, many many of them have still been able to develop their "career" in many other ways, off their own bat, like musicians have been doing on their own from time immemorial.

    I'm not getting a whole "they never done nothing for us" complex on here, I'm just saying that a group like that was always, of neccessity, only going to actually assist a small number of musicians, and only those that a small group of people decided should receive assistance.

    So it's only a big loss to the small amount of bands who would have been selected to receive assistance, is what I meant.


    Personally, If any organisation is going to get public funding, I'd prefer that smaller amounts were given on a more widespread basis, rather than the bulk of funding going where a small group of people decided it would be best placed, whatever about the integrity or motivation of those people.

    I don't think bands should be funded by public money to "take that extra step in developing their careers worldwide". If we're talking about funding music, I'd prefer to see lots of shite bands being given assistance to start out than a couple of commercially "good" bands (in some board's opinion) being given the opportunity to "develop their international career". If they've taken so many steps omn their own, they should be able to take the extra steps on their own.

    That's just my view about public funding, by the way, not trying to start an argument about what bands got what help from NIMIC...I've no idea, apart from anything else.
  164. avatar EPK
    "Personally, If any organisation is going to get public funding, I'd prefer that smaller amounts were given on a more widespread basis, rather than the bulk of funding going where a small group of people decided it would be best placed, whatever about the integrity or motivation of those people."

    A bit of both happened, probably the best compromise.
    Hence the seminars, where industry people were brought over to give the benefit of their experience to a lot of people simultaneously and cover the basics required to get a career up and going, and how to ensure they made the most of it.
    The bands specifically chosen for SXSW and Midem were mainly those with available product that could be pushed in that competitive environment.
  165. avatar Chi-Lite
    ...in some board's opinion.

    The point remains, i think, that many many more musicians will not miss it than will miss it.

    I'll not miss it for one. For which I'm glad , because I wouldn't like to have had an interest in something that seems to have gone so badly wrong.

    It's not the end of the world, or of music, or even of the music "industry" is all I'm saying. Very very far from it, in fact.

    It's the end of a bit of monetary assistance for a very small minority, and the end of a bunch of interesting seminars that, while useful, aren't exactly the most important thing to the continued development of music here. Musicians will carry on, and some of them might even manage to develop on their own terms, rather than subject to government-gifted, board-distributed commercial funding exercises.

    I think the priorities of self-proclaimed "music industry professionals" are not neccessarily the priorities of the vast majority of musicians, at either professional or amateur level.
  166. avatar Woogster
    My first post!
    It's sad to see NIMIC though, although to be honest I reckon the average music-goer in or outside Belfast won't bat an eyelid, beyond asking what it was they did in the first place. I've no doubt the guys were extremely hard working and helpful, as some have hinted; but maybe an upside might be that the 'void' can be filled by someone else who'd like a go with a different approach to the task.
  167. avatar artyfufkin
    To throw in my tuppence's worth I have to say ,reading through this thread, Chi-Lite makes more sense to me than anyone else here. I've always supported myself and my family playing music and I've never heard of NIMIC until now so their demise isn't going to affect me. I'll leave the rest of you to fight this one out.
  168. avatar dave.cava
    Chi-Lite wrote "[i:1db57690a7]Cava, for instance, have been very successful, and if Dave is to be believed, have had no help from NIMIC.[/i:1db57690a7]"

    Indeed, CAVA have never recieved any help from NIMIC whatsoever (no axe to grind here, seriously) even though we asked. Infact with our debut album complete and selling, we approached them about assistence in relation to attending SXSW this year (2009) but got nothing in return. ([i:1db57690a7]This horse was dying of thirst[/i:1db57690a7]);)
    Our approach is that between sales and crossing between covers and originals gigs we get enough money to pay the bills and keep the band running.
    We are about to start recording our second album and if need be we will eventually pay our own way to these industry events.
    Back to the original points of this thread however?
    Was talking to the Development Officer of Creative industry Funding earlier in respect of the last £205,000.00 of funding involving NIMIC recently and as EPK kindly pointed out £87,000.00 was indeed not handed to them because of the developing fiasco.
    This still leaves around £120,000.00 of which it is claimed £30,000.00 went on N.I representation at SXSW 2009.
    Lets take another sum off that for "major website overhaul" say and we are still looking at a lot of public money floating here which I'm sure will eventually be explained. No?
    I'm pushing for a public statement from the Arts Council on the subject to stop the biting a little, so we'll see what happens?
    On the subjects of SXSW 2009 and NIMIC website overhaul and once again, no axe to grind here, but 'Rich' the guy who wrote the blog update on the meeting last night. Are you not a partner in the web design company who got the job of overhauling NIMICS website this year and are you not also a member of the band 'Escape Act' who where asisted by NIMIC to attend SXSW this year as well?
    As i say, I dont really have a problem its just in the name of fairness and transparency these are the types of tenders/funding that should be known.
    The questions haven't gone away and will eventually be asked and the answers obtained by the relevent bodies and not this board.
    Wanna help a band get to SXSW buy a CAVA album..:D

    http://www.cavamusic.com
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  169. avatar The Fires of Hell
    Just further to Dave's post there: given also that NIMIC had been on a known year long wind down, could we clarify exactly when the website overhaul was commissioned?
  170. avatar kingstreetarts
    Hey Epk .. last post was a bit strong its dose sound like im having a go at you but in real terms im not. I value your friendship greatly and your a good guy
    I am still piss off.

    However i think there is progress being made on some fronts at least
    I readed Rich article
    This guys has hit the nail on the head ..
    (Quote)We can never be greater than the sum of our parts, because the parts aren't fully formed!
    This has been my mantra for years to anybody who wanted to hear it.. but Nimic didn't want to hear it They were busy being way ahead off them self's..They ignored the infrastructure that already existed here and the entrepreneurial and enterprising spirit that go's along with it...

    we have been victim to a control freak here!!
    I think you know that deep down in side regardless off what happened at the AGM


    http://www.rich9.co.uk/whats-next-for-ni-music
    Rich Has nailed it here
    and what i realised on reflection is that we've been several steps ahead of ourselves. NIMIC was doomed from the start as it attempted to be all things to all people, when what we really needed was an understanding of the components of the industry, the level they were at, and what needed to be done with each individual sector to make it fit for purpose. As music businesses, we really need to understand our goals (and differences) and organise around them. If that means different groupings, then great! They're more likely to achieve more, and when necessary speak with a single voice.

    I trade in both camps ..Running a rehearsal room (service) Singer /songwriter(creative)
    I am pissed off we dont have a lead body to represent us all ..I dont agree with your wheels off the bus analogy .. I am disgusted by the arrogance of those members of the board who could have call an Egm ..if they didnt want to be liable or responsible for the organisation. They could have moved over for new members to take the board.
    \But instead they are trying to rob us all off that ...So when you say certain people pulled it down they didnt .. Thats a big part off whats getting too me here Epk..
    Its a serious matter
    Joby..
  171. avatar Audioperm
    WOW ...... EPK calm down man. i DIDNT MEAN ANY OFFENCE!!!

    Yeah im a bit slow on the uptake but thats no reason to make fun of me man! UR SCARIN ME.

    But I took your advice and read your post again twice!
    What a load of cheap tat and twaddle it was.

    All joby wanted was a copy of the legal advice about him loosin the vote. Not much to ask is all i was gettin at.. he says hes a nimic member so why not give him the legal advice IN WRITING and he will probably stop asking. just a simple suggestion to sort the problem out!!

    If NIMIC got the money from the CIIF fund for this ___ NIMICGATE ___ survey then NIMIC would have paid for it. Thats the way it works doh . So NIMIC OWN IT.

    Dave.cava if your askin the arts council questions under foi then ask this. - Did they write a cheque directly to Richard Harrison for the NIMIC report, or did NIMIC?

    EPK Your long tedious post was in the most part based on nonsense.

    Companies acts this and that, blah blah THIS, smoke screen this blah blah . You almost sounded like you new what you where talking about. Well not really actually.

    Yeah nimic cant trade whilst their insolvent. but that dont mean the company cant stay a legal entity and just not run up any bills.

    You keepin up EPK? or do you want me to s_l_o_w_d_o_w_n?

    you aint much of a messenger, yur buddies should really get someone else to do their PR.

    Dont ever insult me again man.
  172. avatar MSB Mastering
    EPK:
    [quote:781f9095f2]When two votes were handed in by people...a vote and a proxy..they were examined and at all times..unsurprisingly....were always for the same person.[/quote:781f9095f2]
    So what? You can vote for whoever you want, and you can hand in proxies voting for whoever they want. There's nothing wrong with that.

    EPK:
    [quote:781f9095f2]attempted coup[/quote:781f9095f2]
    If voting for someone in an election is called a coup, then yes, there was a coup. I personally regard it as an election.

    Someone mentioned factions and things becoming unworkable. Well, I don't think that's the case at all. If due process is followed and motions are carried or lost due to voting, it's not unworkable at all - that's the way things should work. That's the way the boards I've served on have worked and the way members' organisations work. And if they don't, organisations cease to function effectively.

    If staff members were given a month's notice, then surely an EGM could have been called, if nothing else so that members could understand what was going on. At this stage, a motion could surely have been put forward for a re-vote or something. Even if it's not in the constitution, notifying members would make sense - I'd have thought it would simply be good practice.

    Irrespective of who owns the report which was commissioned, I hope it's released and things learned from it.
  173. avatar dave.cava
    Audioperm? ere'ye go (page 7 of www.nimusic.com)


    [i:1eb655522a]NI Music Industry - Research Survey 19th May 2009

    The Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission (NIMIC) has commissioned Queen’s University Belfast to carry out a research study exploring the economic impact of the music industry in Northern Ireland.

    This study will document the size of the sector, the vast range of practitioners and businesses which comprise it and the contribution that it makes to the Northern Ireland economy.

    The results of the study will provide a detailed analysis of the scope of the industry and will inform both ourselves and government as to how best to proceed with future supporting policies whether in terms of financial incentives, marketing, skills development etc.

    If you are based in Northern Ireland and work in the music industry in any capacity, we need your help in order to undertake the study, and would encourage you to participate in a survey which is designed to gauge the economic worth of the music sector. We appreciate that some of the information requested in the questionnaire may be of a sensitive nature. Please be assured that Queen’s University researchers will maintain the confidentiality of your response and that the completed surveys will only be viewed by them. Only aggregate survey totals will be provided in the final report.

    Click here to complete the online survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/nimic. Alternatively, if you wish to complete and return a paper version of the survey, please download and print the PDF document linked below.

    NIMIC look forward to receiving your input into this important study and thank you for your participation.

    The research study is funded by the Creative Industries Innovation Fund in association with the Arts Council of Northern Ireland and Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure[/i:1eb655522a]

    http://nimusic.com/news/item/600/ni-music-industry-research-survey


    Speaks for itself. Still no? I'll ask the Arts Council again tomorrow to confirm.


    http://www.cavamusic.com
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  174. avatar MSB Mastering
    One more thing:

    Someone mentioned an attempted shift towards industry professionals. Well, if Joby's election is at the root of all "this", than that wouldn't even make sense. Joby is a formerly signed artist (EMI then MCA/Virgin), and a current recording artist (I know, I mastered one of his songs recently, and very good it was too), as well as running a rehearsal room. So he's got his feet in both camps - artist and industry professional. That's why I thought he'd be a good person to have on the board, and that's why I voted for him.
  175. avatar rentaghost
    This is just [b:2b05e54010]SO[/b:2b05e54010] bad. We are in an era where the Assembly is looking to cut costs as much as it can. It's going after Invest NI with daggers drawn. There isn't enough money in the coffers to cover the cost of existing services, and our power and water infrastructure is down the pan. Sammy Wilson is in charge of the purse strings. As for district council funding - non essential services have already started being cut to keep rates down. There is precious little funding coming from Europe.

    And the music industry board argues itself into insolvency, losing the guts of £100k in the process - money which will be sucked back into government and redeployed.

    Great.

    Fortunately we do have bands that are willing to work their asses off to get somewhere, and my hat goes off to a number of people that post here for the sheer hard work they put in day and daily to do their own PR and to the bands that get up off their backsides and go on tour at their own expense. We've all seen people's cd collections up for sale on this site from time to time. Thankfully there are signs of some of those taking the DIY approach finally getting somewhere.

    My best wishes to Ross and Sandra. I hope that in the wind-up proceedings, they got a fair redundancy payment, and that there are jobs out there soon for them.


    Oh - and as someone who chairs a voluntary board. It's a lot harder than you think it is.
  176. avatar spooks
    My first post!
    Board infighting brought NIMIC down, 10 people, but what was it really all about, who are NIRSA, how did they get involved???????? Ask Oh Yeah about these guys, they had the pleasure at one time......
  177. avatar tinpot anto
    Know what this thread could do with an anonymous ballbag slinging a load of unfounded cockjuice. I mean I've been reading it for days and no fucking joy.

    .........wait you mean?


    Up there above me?


    Well then in that case This Thread Does Livers In!!!!
  178. avatar T Entertainment
    Who are NIRSA then?
  179. avatar spooks
    You gettin angry Anto......
  180. avatar tinpot anto
    I think that's Joby, msb mastering and A few otherswho were worried about the competition from the subsidized Oh Yeah Centre.

    I think that's right from past threads etc. Feel free to correct that btw


    I'm still heartbroken about the demise of COMBO
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  181. avatar spooks
    Joby's a nice guy, but why is he doing all the talkin....where's the other guys, a few who were quite vocal and have now chosen to be silent....see Hansard....its great readin.....
  182. avatar tinpot anto
    Say what you mean or fuck off. Seriously hhis adds nothing to debate
  183. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    OOOOOOOOOooooeeeerrrr you're being very assertive there Anto, I'm getting hot reading it.
  184. avatar MSB Mastering
    I'll speak for myself:
    I'm someone who works my ass off to do the best job I can for the people who hire me to master their material or record them. I cared enough about NIMIC to attend an AGM I'd not been officially notified about, which is more than I can say for a lot of people. I'm not hiding here at all, nor did I last night. I voted for Joby because I thought he would be a good person to have on the board for reasons I cited earlier.

    The Oh Yeah centre is nothing to do with NIMIC. And they're not competing with me. There is a studio there, but it's privately run. I got to meet some of its staff last night and had a good chat with them. Sure we disagree on things, but you'd be surprised at how much we agree on.

    I want whatever follows NIMIC to not fall foul of whatever problems caused its demise so that everyone who posts on here might benefit.

    Spooks: With three posts to your name, you're a newcomer. I'm sorry you join us at a time like this, but welcome. There's a thread where you can introduce yourself if you like elsewhere on the board so you can know who's who.
  185. avatar tinpot anto
    Can you be bothered with that shit like? When a thread like this turns up sooner or later some knobend logs out, logs back in under another name and posts a load of conspiratorial allusions to dark goings on.

    It's a load of oul shite lent credence by a faux display of secrecy.

    So I say again: say what you mean or fuck off.

    You need a tissue Mickey?
  186. avatar MSB Mastering
    [quote:69916e94c4="MSB Mastering"]I'll speak for myself:
    I'm someone who works my ass off to do the best job I can for the people who hire me to master their material or record them. I cared enough about NIMIC to attend an AGM I'd not been officially notified about, which is more than I can say for a lot of people. I'm not hiding here at all, nor did I last night. I voted for Joby because I thought he would be a good person to have on the board for reasons I cited earlier.

    The Oh Yeah centre is nothing to do with NIMIC. And they're not competing with me. There is a studio there, but it's privately run. I got to meet some of its staff last night and had a good chat with them. Sure we disagree on things, but you'd be surprised at how much we agree on. EDIT: I'M ADDING THIS TO CLARIFY IN RESPONSE TO ANTO ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION: When Oh Yeah was announced, the announcement did say there would be a recording studio. I don't remember the exact details, but it would have been publicly funded. A lot of people who earn their living in the private sector objected as it would have led to market distortion and unfair competition etc. etc. And, in the past, many publicly funded recording studios haven't been commercially viable and have closed down. That's now been addressed. END OF EDIT.

    I want whatever follows NIMIC to not fall foul of whatever problems caused its demise so that everyone who posts on here might benefit.

    Spooks: With three posts to your name, you're a newcomer. I'm sorry you join us at a time like this, but welcome. There's a thread where you can introduce yourself if you like elsewhere on the board so you can know who's who.[/quote:69916e94c4]
  187. avatar tinpot anto
    Yeah from my understanding most of those concerns were worked out with a bit of communication and the actual experience of having the centre in existence.

    Just didn't want to speak for y'all!
  188. avatar Turks
    Well after over an hours reading can I join in?

    Somebody touched on this earlier and then it seemed to be lost but here's one absolute fact. Company Law has very few absolutes but one of them is that if you are a membership based organisation you MUST keep an up to date database of your members. At this basic level something has gone wrong and I would suggest that as a direct result they have paid a big price.

    For an organisation such as this to succeed there absolutely must be transparency and 13 pages would suggest there was not.

    One other thing tho, EPK I see no reason to wind the company up completely other than a board that have lost the will. Redundancies etc fair enough but there's a long standing company here with history and structures. If we're gonna have to start again from scratch, it would've been nice to have something there.

    After throwing the baby out with the bath water they then proceeded to throw out the bath and take a sledge hammer to the bathroom wall.

    That's my two cents anyway - could be total crap but there you go.
  189. avatar superfreakz
    Frig me pink!
    This is as complicated as the end of the matrix when the dude in the White suit says ergo one too many times.

    " They offered the opportunity to all those that could be bothered applying.
    Horse, water, drink etc etc."

    um....... No they didn't. For our band we I handed in demo's well recorded I might add and great stuff too lol. All I wanted was maybe a gig somewhere? I then tried to apply for sxsw but the shortlist seemed very predetermined. I eventually tried to set up a meeting and upon our fifth attempt we got a meeting with nimic. ....... Only to leave it none the wiser!

    I really doubt anyone will notice something missing after nimic, let's just hope something worthwhile rears it's head although if your gonna make it your gonna make it and that's just it.
  190. avatar JTM
    [quote:ede3d40fe3="superfreakz"]Frig me pink!
    This is as complicated as the end of the matrix when the dude in the White suit says ergo one too many times.

    " They offered the opportunity to all those that could be bothered applying.
    Horse, water, drink etc etc."

    um....... No they didn't. For our band we I handed in demo's well recorded I might add and great stuff too lol. All I wanted was maybe a gig somewhere? I then tried to apply for sxsw but the shortlist seemed very predetermined. I eventually tried to set up a meeting and upon our fifth attempt we got a meeting with nimic. ....... Only to leave it none the wiser!

    I really doubt anyone will notice something missing after nimic, let's just hope something worthwhile rears it's head although if your gonna make it your gonna make it and that's just it.[/quote:ede3d40fe3]

    NIMIC weren't the sort of folks you handed a demo to and said "Gis a gig" - they didn't run any to my knowledge. They were the kind of people who, if you came to them with a proposal for funding for a tour that you'd booked yourself or something like that, they'd give you the money. If you were lucky.
  191. avatar superfreakz
    Nimic organized and recommended plenty. Gigs in the spring and air, sxsw, they even put together CDs of what they considered to be the best bands of ni but time and time again it only seemed to the old favourites that featured. I'm not at all bitter because we were never featured I just feel that someone who claims to be in business to help the talent of this island flourish but doesn't give everyone a fair shot or in this case even listen to the countless CDs that were dropped round (Ross)is a corrupt and narrowminded body.
  192. avatar Rocky
    NIMIC DID run gigs at times, as part of different projects. They DIDN'T run an official SXSW showcase. They didn't select the bands that played SXSW (sometimes were asked their opinions on the bands who sxsw were reviewing for inclusion), they didn't apply on the bands' behalf. They DIDN'T fund individual bands' tours, only assisted with bands playing international showcasing opportunities,
    or in at least one case, put on a showcase themselves.

    They made their decisions mirroring the achievements of bands and wider belief of the industry in the selected bands, perhaps harsh and unjustified for some, but when their success was measured (by those funding them) by achievements such as deals secured/money coming into the industry/ NI music exported, you can hopefully have a greater understanding of what they were doing.

    I also often remember that this is funding received from government bodies for musicians and in my opinion there is never going to be a full understanding on their behalf on how the music industry actually works, so it's always going to be difficult to have something perfectly reflective -
    of course having a body who can explain it would be great - but possibly, that explanation wouldn't be one they'd want to hear (if they knew the truth, there'd probably be no funding, giving the unknown factors and chances of seeing any return from anything you put into the music industry)

    How come the vast majority of people here don't know how it works? don't know how SXSW works? Don't know how NIMIC worked?

    I left school before doing my a levels and worked as crew, I'm not smarter than anyone else here. I also haven't had the chance know anyone working in music from my childhood/family life.

    I've introduced myself to and worked along side everyone from NIMIC to Andrew Ferris, Stuart Bailie, David Neely, Gerry Bannon, In Case Of Fire, Distortion Project, Wakicki, Skibunny, Olympic Lifts, The Cartel, Bar/None Records, Small Town America, Fantastic Plastic, Shapiro Bernstein, Warner Chappell, Chop Shop, Free Trade, High Road Touring, Tape Op, The Empire, The Arts Council, The Guitar Emporium, ATL, Stephen McCauley, AU, Fate, Belfast Telegraph, Johnny Davis etc etc etc.

    There's no secrets or magic tricks, I've researched and learned the ways to operate my business (be that my band or my studio, or me as a producer) I've found a balance between art & commerce that I'm personally comfortable with and I've gone out there and treated people with respect and offered them my best and in every single case I've done so I've been rewarded with each of those people offering their best back to me, no handshakes, no evil plans, just solid hard work.

    That's how you get along in life and holy shit, I wish everybody else would do something similar that works for them.

    It will result in either success, where dependance on funding (as seems to be the mindset here)
    will cease to be important, because people will actually succeed based on abilities.

    Or it will result in people realising "hell this is hard work and I'm not getting anywhere, I don't really think I want to do this anymore"

    Both are great successes.

    In my case I've stuck by:
    Learn your industry yourself, don't wait around for an organisation to help you, rely on yourself,
    rely on the individuals around you until you've learned everything possible.
    If there's an organisation to take it even further, it will benefit you greatly, but if there's not,
    you will survive and much more importantly, like in my case, I feel happy with what I do.

    I don't feel cheated or overlooked, I'm happy when other bands get great opportunities,
    I'm encouraged when I hear other people are starting studios and music supervision companies,
    when labels are releasing bands.
    I feel content that I work hard enough that everything is going to go the way I want it to
    and if it doesn't, nothing more could have been done.
  193. avatar Chi-Lite
    That's all well and good, but what does it have to do with NIMIC?

    :tongue:
  194. avatar T Entertainment
    I like the way 'Music Industry Professionals' is so often capitalized round here. It's just darling.
  195. avatar Recycled Alien
    [quote:b0e43b65d4="Chi-Lite"]That's all well and good, but what does it have to do with NIMIC?[/quote:b0e43b65d4]Yeah, I think Rocky's problem is that he plays in a band that is actually good* and works and tours like a mad bastard to make something of his musical career. So he can't see how disappointing it is for useless bands who never got any help handed to them on a plate.

    *that's not a crack about your band - I'm really impressed by your recent successes
  196. avatar Chi-Lite
    Yes but who was ever talking about useless bands getting handed everything on a plate?

    In fact, who has ever got handed everything on a plate?

    I just don't know what Rocky's getting at here, other than to tell us how hard-working he is and how we should all be like him. no offence, but I'm sure we all work very hard at what we're doing, but we do it in different ways.

    The issue is whether NIMIC as a body could ever be able to represent all of those different ways of doing it, rather than ony giving assistance to those who want to do it a particular way.
  197. avatar dave.cava
    Yawn. anyone got a spare cross handy?

    http://www.cavamusic.com
  198. avatar Pavel
    From my short time working within the Northern Irish music community I've noticed only one thing that separates the bands, photographers, promoters, producers,... 'whatever the fucks' that continue to improve and do well, and those that don't and sit asking questions of those around them.

    Work.

    One of the bands I work closest with, A Plastic Rose are (by their own admission) well aware that they need to be constantly striving to do more for themselves and over the last twelve months the work they've done has seen them through a few festivals and other highlights during the year - and with another push on the accelerator, another jump will occur.

    They know that the more they put in the more they get back out, and they know that they are never doing 'enough'.

    'Enough' never is the pinnacle, one can always do more.

    ...and quite simply put, some bands don't realise that.

    I've met plenty of talkers and pretenders who just are not willing to commit to the work needed to even jump up the 'first rung' on their wishlist of things to do.

    NIMIC was only ever a tool to be used if it bent in your direction, the same as winning the lottery or being cherry picked by some famous producer - a wild card you shouldn't ever be pinning all your hopes on.

    Like...if NIMIC decided not to fund your tour, did you just give up and moan?

    ...or did you look at how else to get the funding in?
  199. avatar dave.cava
    Was just speaking to the Arts Council concerning this Queens University survey into the N.I music or NIMIC-GATE or whatever you want to call it.
    The answer is clear and simple. The Arts Council nor InvestNI did not comission that survey through NIMIC.
    NIMIC got funding through a particular round of the Creative Industries Innovation Fund to the sum of [b:1d19400016]£98,750.00[/b:1d19400016]. NIMIC commissioned the Q.U survey themselves using some of that money as stated on there website and as is public knowledge.
    Hope this clears that end up for yez.
    Now? Where is it, how much did it cost, has it been paid for, etc..?


    http://www.cavamusic.com
  200. avatar Chi-Lite
    Jesus Christ, how has this thread turned into a fucking motivation class about how hard we should all work and how we shouldn't moan?

    Nobody that I can see is sitting on their holes doing nothing and then complaining when they don't get anywhere. People are asking relevant questions about the tits going up on a publicly funded body seemingly because of the way it was run.

    Where is all this fucking pontificating coming from? If I read "people need the drive to push themselves and achieve in the industry" one more time...and its fucking ironic, considering we're talking about the allocation of funding for a small group of people.
  201. avatar pennydistribution
    My thoughts on Monday's Meeting
    [url=http://pennydistribution.wordpress.com/?p=322&preview=true]NIMIC - What's Next?[/url]
  202. avatar T Entertainment
    Any word on the audio?
  203. avatar fastfude
    Another thought - what becomes of all the data stored by NIMIC? Quite a lot of sensitive business and personal information there I'd imagine - accounts, invoices, emails, meeting notes of hundreds of individuals and groups. Is anyone ensuring it's properly and securely wiped?
  204. avatar Rocky
    [quote:e522eaac54="Chi-Lite"]
    I'm pretty sure we're still all gonna be making music - those of us who actually make music, rather than sitting on committees.

    I mean, fair enough, it's a blow that there's no longer a funded organisation to develop the "music industry". I'm sure that will affect some "music industry professionals" who apparently depend on government funding to be professional.

    Many many many more musicians will not be affected one way or the other, and that's the truth of the matter. I certainly won't be affected in any way shape or form. Condolences to those of you who now won't be able to afford to go to SXSW. Maybe you should start saving your wages from your job as a music industry professional and take yourself over.[/quote:e522eaac54]

    Chi Lite! My post was mostly in agreement to this great post you made, because it makes so much sense. I was merely giving my experience of what you said.

    The first part of my post was in reference to the things people said above me about the roles of NIMIC, that I know for a fact weren't correct.

    T-ENTS - I have used the term "music industry professionals" to describe those who make their living working in the music industry.

    I fully agree with Chi Lite that anyone working in music should be able to achieve what they need to with or without NIMIC, if they can't
    perhaps they aren't doing very well, or maybe are making choices (such as buying ipods, nice shoes, beers) instead of pouring everything into what they're doing.

    I've been talking about all of this, because I think it's more important than NIMIC or any body like them to the success and growth of the music industry in Northern Ireland.

    T-Ents!
    I've used the terms "music industry professional" because i believe
    there is a difference in views, opinions and needs of "music industry professionals" and people who work in other industries and have a non-professional/part time interest in the music industry.

    The views/experiences/needs of either side are no less important or valid or relevant, but they are different and I've mostly been referring to the professional aspect of it, as that's where i'm at.

    I'm not working in full time employment in a non music related job,
    like I believe you are?
    Therefore your day to day is different than my day to day
    and the result will be a different interest and need from music.
    I'm not saying which is more valid, important or anything,
    I'm just saying they are different.

    I mentioned in passing at the meeting to people that I did
    think that NIMIC's open door facility to bands was lacking,
    through no fault of their own. People were quick to mention,
    you only had to call, they'd help all they could.

    This clearly wasn't good enough, because there are so many disgruntled people who feel like they've been overlooked.

    I think as important as anything is (at least) one person who sits
    9-5 at a desk, five days a week and anyone can walk in, no appointment, and ask them anything to help them with their musical
    career, or musical interest.

    I think it's essential in making the industry feel open to everyone,
    which probably is the biggest gripe with NIMIC from the most amount of people.

    I'd love to see it implemented, how though? is a question I can't answer.

    I'd be willing to give up my time to help out, if it was of benefit for anyone to ask me questions. I wish that people in a similar position would be willing to do the same, 20 people, one day each a month, print the list, let people see whos on on which day, so it's useful for all.

    Then there'd be no need to wait around for a music industry to be presented by a funded body, it would be built and supported from the ground up. I think that's my other point, I don't want to wait around for someone else to help and encourage people in N.I. music,
    when we could just get out and do it as best we can for the time being.

    Maybe I'm over the top in wanting to motivate people, I'm just trying to get some people to think about what they actually do everyday. Some people do work hard in different ways, but undeniably some people don't work hard enough, or don't learn enough and work at the wrong things.

    I'd also like to repeat myself and say that NIMIC part funded
    two trips to SXSW and secured money for us to pay a local artist to make a music video in 2006. - all of which helped greatly.

    This money amounted to approx £5,600.00
    £5,600 is approximately 1 or 2% of the money that's passed through Oppenheimer since we started.

    And yes, the money was greatly received at the time and it made a difference to us, but I will say that if we hadn't got that money
    from NIMIC, I would have got it from somewhere...

    Forums aren't the best place to get points across and explain properly
    what you're trying to say in such complicated circumstances. So I'm going to stop trying to say it.

    If anyone has anything music related they ever feel like I could help them with, I'm always around here and I'm always willing to help in any way I feel I can. So anyone, please reach out.

    I do honestly hope that everyone in Northern Ireland gets what they want out of music and if there are short comings in delivering peoples needs in any way, it is a real shame.
  205. avatar Deadlights
    On that note Rocky, I sent u a PM earlier looking some advice or a kick in the right direction :D
  206. avatar Rocky
    just replied. Hope it's of some use. Good Luck!
  207. avatar tinpot anto
    See that's good. I'd just to add my position.

    Without willing to appear critical of the type of music produced I have often attempted to pursue the path of the professional self promoting artist, I find that the persona required completely jars with every nerve in my personality.

    Noone else on the TPO has any aptitude or inclination for it. Thing is that's also our USP as a saleable act as I see it. As I understand it in most quarters an unwillingness to adopt these skills is as much ifnot more of a handicap as a junkie drummer. To me it's what makes our music unique and what makes ne Wang to keep making it after all this time.

    I'm not whining here for the sake. Our position is by default that where work in the band is involved, it's writing, rehearsing and arranging that get priority every time.

    I just want to make a tiny shout for the intrinsic non-commercial value of honest, uncontrived and raw music made and played for it's own right. It has a real value

    i believe the perfect combination is for someone else with skill as a manager to work with a band who are only interested in music and not afraid to massively fuck up in Search of something wonderful. Problem is, in this place and todays climate it's better for those people to form their own safe mediocre band get some sync revenue etc than work for someone else

    like I said this is not a moan or a criticism of those with the skills to combine both strands but more a call to recognise that music does have a value beyond the pounds and pence.

    The double irony being that the TPO still manage to sell a surprising amount of music.
  208. avatar Pete
    I think part of people's percieved problem with NIMIC stems from confusion about it's purpose and how to deal with them.

    A lot of bands coming through my studio would complain that they would contact NIMIC and either get no reply or zero help when they did get communication. But the problem in most cases seemed to me that inexperienced bands would approach NIMIC, basically just ask for "help" on "making it" and expect the answer to all their musical problems, inclusion on a CD and a load of gigs.

    Whereas people more switched on to the industry already, having a better idea of what they want and need could approach NIMIC with much more specific requests and get valuable help, information and sometimes funding.

    The series of "Music : It's the Business" seminars run by NIMIC, from the few I got the chance to attend, were certainly very good and should have been enough to focus bands on asking the right questions and making the right plans.

    When I was part of Morph we applied for some tour funding and didn't get it. At the time I was pissed off but looking back we didn't have any real formulated plan on how that tour would help us further our careers and NIMIC were right to turn us down in favour of someone more focussed.

    Inspite of all that I really don't feel that the loss of NIMIC is a crushing blow to musicians in this country and the event is being blown out of proportion.

    Yes it's a shame we no longer have a public body representing and serving us, yes questions need answered on technicalities. But with a (relatively) small budget and limited resources there was only so much they could do and across the country tonight great songs are still being written, gigs go on, bands still rehearse and music is being recorded.
  209. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    [quote:eaa87b4cab="tinpot anto"]
    I just want to make a tiny shout for the intrinsic non-commercial value of honest, uncontrived and raw music made and played for it's own right. It has a real value

    i believe the perfect combination is for someone else with skill as a manager to work with a band who are only interested in music and not afraid to massively fuck up in Search of something wonderful. Problem is, in this place and todays climate it's better for those people to form their own safe mediocre band get some sync revenue etc than work for someone else

    like I said this is not a moan or a criticism of those with the skills to combine both strands but more a call to recognise that music does have a value beyond the pounds and pence. [/quote:eaa87b4cab]

    Yeah, cool. The only issue for me is that once you treat anything as a commodity, it seems always to "cheapen the deal" and leave a bitter taste. It sucks, but when it comes to music I'm starting to think in other ways. Maybe one meaningful solution is trying to search for some physically+mentally rewarding "honest" work that is both self and community serving in order to sustain myself, whilst keeping music as separate from lifeless commodification as I possibly can...hmm...

    I guess other people are always going to exploit it though, believe in authorship/copyright etc. It just sucks, at least for me on a personal level, to see such a great phenomenon known as human music making be reduced to grinding gears, just like everything else....as opposed to being celebrated in a role that serves communities and individuals on a positive level mentally, spiritually, etc....

    Good to think about though, even if it's a bit depressing and most people think I'm talking shite. Also I know these posts aren't all that relevant to the "thread title" (why that commonly seems to be an "issue" on message boards mystifies me...tangents are usually GREAT) but they can be ignored rather easily.
  210. avatar Per
    there used be some on a wall in the holy lands that said "Free Barrabas"
  211. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:b372bc02e2="Rocky"]Chi Lite! My post was mostly in agreement to this great post you made, because it makes so much sense.[/quote:b372bc02e2]

    Sorry Rocky, I've taken you up wrong. I thought you were giving it the "everybody criticising NIMIC is just jealous because they don't work hard enough" that we always seems to get on this fastfude.

    As it is, I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
  212. avatar leeroy77
    My first post!
    I met Ross in a pizzeria at midem in cannes, 2006. I had just finished 3 nights shows there with the lads I work with. He recognised my accent, and said hello. I found him to be very clued into the industry vibe and a nice guy in general. I never used NIMIC for anything though lifted the phone from time to time to ask advice on various things, like when my publisher was going under, or label problems, or even management problems. I see how much they helped Foy, Duke and oppenhiemer too....only from an outsider point of view though.....they may disagree, but they got some good coverage at SXSW etc. Anyway, this is my first post and thought I may as well start here....Lee
  213. avatar 9LiesSteve
    I feel un loved by NIMIC and cant say I will miss it. I always thought they were useless, I contacted them loads of times over the years for advise, or with quierys, quite often directly to Sandra only to be totaly ignored. Im glad that by the sounds of it there are some people here who did receive good help and support from them, but isnt that always the way, only talk about the good insomeone after theyre gone.
  214. avatar Kingnez
    this seems to be a recurrent theme the 'i got blanked' story
  215. avatar tinpot anto
    I went to my bank once and told them I wanted £500 to buy gangha once.
  216. avatar tenrabbits
    [quote:8d5613a0db="Rocky"]This money amounted to approx £5,600.00
    £5,600 is approximately 1 or 2% of the money that's passed through Oppenheimer since we started.[/quote:8d5613a0db]

    After doing the sums here I can only presume you guys are a moderately successful money laundering outfit!
  217. avatar tinpot anto
    That's about half the money the TPO have helped raise for charity.
    Not bragging just very proud of that
  218. avatar stevieo
    As far as advice was concerned, I was totally ignored. I wasnt looking for any money like, just some advice, as 9liessteve experienced and many others. If someone in this mircrotime business choses to ignore me, I normally take it with a pinch of salt but a they were given public money to help musicians so I have a right to be pissed off. If NIMIC were funded as a record label, agency etc then their conduct could be justified. I have looked at all the posts of the NIMIC soap opera on fastfude dating back to EPKs no confidence vote in 2001. It has been a bollocks from the start and in a delusional self interested bubble if it thought it ever dealt fairly in any fashion.
  219. avatar fastfude
    I'd be curious to know what your contact with them was like - email? phone? drop-in? What was asked and in what way? Was any follow-up attempted?

    I know from the volume of email I get, some people are just very very bad at communicating. I really do get emails that just contain "how do i post" and [i:1532674d51]nothing[/i:1532674d51] else. I'm sometimes too busy for even the well written queries, so if someone can't compose a simple polite email with sentences and background info to the query, I'm not going to waste an hour walking them through all the concepts of using an Internet message board! I can only imagine it's an order of magnitude worse for Sandra.

    I'm not saying that's the case here, but if you have very limited hours to try and get things done, you will tend to respond to those queries that are clear and simple and can be addressed without going back and forth half a dozen times to clarify the question!
  220. avatar tinpot anto
    Dear Fastfude,

    what the fuck?!?

    A


    Ps Ban me
  221. avatar spirit of division
    [quote:2cc3bc69e6="fastfude"]I'd be curious to know what your contact with them was like - email? phone? drop-in? What was asked and in what way? Was any follow-up attempted?

    I know from the volume of email I get, some people are just very very bad at communicating. I really do get emails that just contain "how do i post" and [i:2cc3bc69e6]nothing[/i:2cc3bc69e6] else. I'm sometimes too busy for even the well written queries, so if someone can't compose a simple polite email with sentences and background info to the query, I'm not going to waste an hour walking them through all the concepts of using an Internet message board! I can only imagine it's an order of magnitude worse for Sandra.

    I'm not saying that's the case here, but if you have very limited hours to try and get things done, you will tend to respond to those queries that are clear and simple and can be addressed without going back and forth half a dozen times to clarify the question![/quote:2cc3bc69e6]


    I've sent them at least two mails about two seperate topics and mostly I just needed pointing in the right direction...didnt get anything back. I was concise and included all the relevant background info to avoid a prolonged email exchange. If they have too many queries they could have taken away the email contact and left people with a number; probably would have made people think before sending mail.
  222. avatar mattagnew
    i got this email from someone who read my blog and i thought you guys might want to read about it. i don't personally know the man who sent it, so he could even be on this forum. eitherway, i haven't received a reply back and it didn't go into detail.

    check the link
    http://www.mattagnew.com/2009/11/nimic-update.html
  223. avatar Chi-Lite
    It's not the same as NIMIC though, is it? Or maybe Brian Kennedy and Richard Abbot are trying to squeeze ino this wee oening.
  224. avatar fastfude
    There was talk of thon NIMRS thing last year: http://fastfude.org/topic.php?id=25778
  225. avatar feline1
    [quote:bd3da5d7e3="thebatgranny"]Feline 1 will be happy.[/quote:bd3da5d7e3]


    Feline 1 : NIMIC nil
  226. avatar mattagnew
    lol you namedropped chi not me.. ;)
    if they are setting up a nimic replacement, they'd definitely be two different companies as NIMRS is just a collection society.. he just stated a music foundation and with this timing / gap in the market as well as not mentioning NIMRS at all, would it be fair to make the assumption thats what he means??
    [u:3e56a85302]
    i know what they say about assumptions tho[/u:3e56a85302] so if he is only talking about the NIMRS then i should really shut up!! but i'd hate the idea of some group setting up a new nimic with the idea that we simply need to license our music and to promote another a business that they can make money out of.

    there's probably going to be alot of people trying to get their foot in with nimic closing so i suppose we'll need to wait and see..

    ps sorry for going off topic but NI also needs a really good label that can license new talent to the majors. (like a fierce panda of Northern Ireland)
  227. avatar feline1
    [quote:92bee33658="EPK"]Once again, how can an organisation which is membership based, with board members elected by that membership, decide to wind itself up without an EGM for members to consider the issues and put it to a vote?
    I'd like someone to point out to me how this can legally happen.
    In addition, the NIMIC Articles Of Association, its Constitution, says that directors can be removed by an ordinary resolution.
    This should have been done to ensure the existence of the organisation at all costs, and there has been a failure of duty to do so.
    With Rich, I agree that Ross, Sandra and all staff did a fantastic job. I saw their work at first hand, and the paltry sums that were used in funding were maximised beyond belief due to that commitment. This mustn't be allowed to be wasted.[/quote:92bee33658]


    Indeed Eamonn,
    and furthermore one might wonder just how much chicken chow mein they board have run off with. It would be interesting to see the final accounts.
  228. avatar feline1
    [quote:de47c32fb7="Chi-Lite"]I can't say how helpful Nimic where, as I've never had cause to contact them, but surely the fact that an organisation like that can fold because some of the organisers have fallen out must say something about how the organisation was run.

    Imagine if the Arts Council folded because some of its board members fell out? Or, as it's about the "industry", imagine if the CBI folded because some of its members fell out?

    Says something about how open and transparent the organisation was, put it like that. No slur on the major contacts, Ross and Sandra, who, I've heard, have been very helpful to lots of people. That's no way to run that kind of organisation but. As is now apparent.[/quote:de47c32fb7]


    Oh my god, I agree with Marty. Nurse! Nurse!
  229. avatar feline1
    [quote:3e5708cb17="T Entertainment"]Is there any chance that someone could shed a bit more light on what actually happened here?
    This 'irreconcilable differences' line simply isn't good enough.[/quote:3e5708cb17]


    Clearly one half of the board wanted King Prawn in Black Bean Sauce,
    whilst other elements (SPLITTERS!) preferred Duck in Hoi Sin Sauce with flied lice.

    If only all parties could have worked together to move the process forward, they could have been eligable for Set Menu B for 12 persons, which included prawn sesame toast and a free cawn.
  230. avatar feline1
    I like this thread on the old Feline board
    http://felinedreams.yuku.com/topic/627/t/NIMIC-VOTING.html

    It tells the tale of how some of the NIMIC board tried to sue NIMIC members
    for defamation because they didn't want to vote for them. Or sthg. Halcyon days!

    It also has the time when NIMIC solicited demos from local bands to put out a compilation CD,
    but didn't put it out, cos they decided local music was sh1te.
  231. avatar MSB Mastering
    Belfast Telegraph today says that the report by QUB's Richard Harrison on the music industry's econmic potential is "imminent". Let's see.
  232. avatar T Entertainment
    Calls for probe into music body’s collapse
    By Lindsay Fergus
    Tuesday, 24 November 2009


    A public investigation into the collapse of the Northern Ireland Music Industry Commission (NIMIC) has been called for by five of its directors.

    In a statement to the Belfast Telegraph, directors Damien Murray, Lesley Hume, Andrew Peters, William Thompson and Robert Barry said: “We, as five members of the NIMIC board have already registered our deep concerns about how the affairs of NIMIC were being handled with the relevant Government departments and are now calling for a public investigation into the circumstances that have led NIMIC to its current position.”

    It has emerged that the five directors first raised concerns about NIMIC’s dealings with a number of people including Enterprise Minister Arlene Foster back in March.

    In a letter dated March 17, 2009, the directors said: “In the absence of full and accurate information being made available in a timely manner, we are not able at this time to confirm that the interests of the members of the company are being well served and that applications for public funding have been scrutinised to ensure good value to the public purse,” the three-page letter added.

    Concerns were also registered with Belfast City Council, Nigel Dodds (then Minister for Finance) and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Earlier this month it was announced that NIMIC, which was set up in 2001 to promote local talent, was to be closed down.

    In an official statement, Invest Northern Ireland, which was was one of the principal funders said: “Due to irreconcilable issues within NIMIC's board, Invest NI was unable to consider any further funding. NIMIC has made a significant contribution to the development of the music industry in Northern Ireland since 2001.”

    The decision to axe the body has been met with criticism while concerns have been expressed about the impact on Northern Ireland’s music industry. Ironically a report by Professor Richard Harrison from Queen’s University, commissioned by NIMIC to look at the economic potential of the music industry, is imminent.
  233. avatar JTM
    [quote:2f7677c649]imminent...[/quote:2f7677c649]

    [img:2f7677c649]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aVNJMgBoAKA/SVZtfgqSsOI/AAAAAAAAAj8/2Ubb3Ttg6fc/s400/work-in-progress.jpg[/img:2f7677c649]
  234. avatar dave.cava
    Good news.
    I know that some of the funding bodies where following with interest this thread on Fastfude. Hopefully this will help with the request of a Public Enquiry actually being persued.
    The music industry in N.I is still alive and kicking.

    http://www.cavamusic.com

    CAVA @ Ma'Nelsons Bar, Lisburn Rd.
    12/12/09 .. 8.00-11.00pm
  235. avatar Deestroyer
    Some exclusive photos have actually turned up of the final board meeting just before the decision to wind up was announced. I think you'll agree, it's very revealing.

    [img:ede8631d15]http://www.2dayblog.com/images/2009/july/superhero_meeting.jpg[/img:ede8631d15]
  236. avatar Deadlights
    Im glad to see that spiderman turned up, after what happened at the last meeting he attended
  237. avatar JTM
    I blame the cowboys, personally.

    Seriously though, I'm looking forward to reading the reports. EDIT: and if an enquiry does take place, the results of that.
  238. avatar rubyvroom
    [quote:a9b27af837="JTM"]I blame the cowboys, personally.

    Seriously though, I'm looking forward to reading the reports. EDIT: and if an enquiry does take place, the results of that.[/quote:a9b27af837]


    Indeed. Maybe democratic justice will prevail after-all? ;)

    http://www.cavamusic.com
    http://myspace.com/rubycollley
  239. avatar JoanneNicole
    Notes from the meeting
    Monday 16th November 2009

    Prepared by Jennie McCullough, Bruised Fruit

    http://pennydistribution.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/nimic-whats-next-notes-from-the-meeting/
  240. avatar feline1
    [quote:89b9445c63="JoanneNicole"]Notes from the meeting
    Monday 16th November 2009

    Prepared by Jennie McCullough, Bruised Fruit

    http://pennydistribution.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/nimic-whats-next-notes-from-the-meeting/[/quote:89b9445c63]


    [i:89b9445c63]"The idea of a Performing Rights Society specifically for NI was suggested which could provide an income stream for artists. [/i:89b9445c63]" --- some people still peddling that guff 2 years on? lol


    Anyways, at least if NIMIC did one thing, it was to sort out the flypostering thing with Belfast City Council. You've got to hand that to them.
  241. avatar Midhir Records
    Very sorry to hear this, Ross and Sandra were a great help and very pleasant people to work with.

    Can anyone accurately describe the legal structure of NIMIC? It was described before as a limited company, I'm guessing by guarantee rather than shares. If so, who was guarantor?

    Sad as it is, unless a dissolution is protected by a clause in the Articles there's probably no legal recourse as far as I can see. They probably wouldn't have used a board vote unless they knew that it wasn't necessary to call a EGM.

    Anyone who has a copy of the Articles could check this, but bear in mind as well that the Companies Act was changed effective in October, and it made sweeping changes to the Articles of Association. They now contain most of the Memorandum too, and a rake of other changes. NIMIC's Articles might well have been updated drastically last month so you'll need the latest copy.
  242. avatar ohnoes
    My first post!
    Is there any word on this report from Queens?

    PJ
  243. avatar MSB Mastering
    I've e-mailed the report's author just now asking for a publication date, but I'm not holding my breath.
  244. avatar rubyvroom
    [quote:98b9c7fbe6="MSB Mastering"]I've e-mailed the report's author just now asking for a publication date, but I'm not holding my breath.[/quote:98b9c7fbe6]

    More smoke and mirrors d'ya reckon? ;)
  245. avatar shep
    [quote:ab38b47431="MSB Mastering"]I've e-mailed the report's author just now asking for a publication date, but I'm not holding my breath.[/quote:ab38b47431]

    Your medal is in the post
  246. avatar MSB Mastering
    Good, but I'm not holding my breath.;) Shep, I was at a meeting where there was a lot of talk of moving things forward, and I'd have thought a report on the state of the industry would be helpful, but maybe that's ridiculous.
  247. avatar ohnoes
    Thanks for the update and for taking this forward.
  248. avatar ohnoes
    Hi there, is there anything to report feedback wise?
  249. avatar ohnoes
    Still nothing from the report author, NIMIC or Invest NI?

    In view of the fact that there was no BCC live music event in central Belfast last night is it the case that they've given up on music / music events alltogether?
  250. avatar T Entertainment
    Perhaps they took on board the widespread criticism of throwing half a million quids worth of ratepayers' money at an event which ran in direct competition with private promoters?
  251. avatar my-angel-rocks
    There was widespread criticism? From people other than the promoters? If so, how come no-one in Edinburgh complains about hogmanay?

    I'd have said that the council is just still a bit cash strapped from the past few years financial situation, and they figured half a million could be better spent on something else.
  252. avatar T Entertainment
    Well, even the councillors themselves went 'wtf, we signed off on *this*?!' afterwards.
    Hogmany is a HUGE tourist draw, it fills every hotel in the city. It is directly responsible for millions being spent in the shops and restaruants. A Supergrass gig at the City Hall, even with local support, somehow fails to do this.
    I don't want any of my substantial rates contribution being spent on large paycheques for super-annuated Britpop bands. I'd just like to see the bins collected and the street lamps work. Which often isn't the case.
    Ditto Clown Colleges. The market will provide in both cases, as the Simpsons shows us.
  253. avatar my-angel-rocks
    True enough, but I'd have thought it would have been in the councils interests to promote Belfast as a tourist destination during this period instead of just giving up. *shrug* its not like they've been so self-aware in the past of their failings.
  254. avatar T Entertainment
    Yes but would a Shed Seven gig at the City Hall, even [i:0d09ff62f2]with[/i:0d09ff62f2] the cream of local talent supporting, have brought a single person into the city other than the band and their crew?
    I'd be astonished if [i:0d09ff62f2]anyone[/i:0d09ff62f2] traveled to Belfast from outside NI to see Supergrass.

    Unless you can get Zep to reform for said gig, you're just not going to generate tourism out of it. It's a total red herring, but one that is always trotted out to excuse this sort of silly crowding out by local government.

    If there's demand for Supergrass to play in Belfast, then the next time they tour, someone will book them. They've even played here before without the backing of BCC. Incredible, I know.
  255. avatar ohnoes
    I take it that's a "no" on the report?
  256. avatar T Entertainment
    I haven't a clue. Here's a thought though: rather than popping up intermittently and asking if anyone has tried to procure it, why don't you contact the relevant bodies and ask of its whereabouts?
    You clearly know as much about it, and care more about it, than most people on this forum.
  257. avatar ohnoes
    Fair comment. Have you or anyone else any direct contact details for such people?
  258. avatar EPK
    Invest Northern Ireland and The Arts Council of Northern Ireland.
    I believe they may be in the phone book, or online.
  259. avatar ohnoes
    Any individuals in particular?
  260. avatar T Entertainment
    Who was the author?
  261. avatar ohnoes
    Cheers T Entertainment, from an earlier post of yours I see it's Professor Richard Harrison from Queen’s University.

    Do you have any other contacts at the orgs EPK has suggested?
  262. avatar EPK
    It was Dr. Patrick Mc Cole, not Prof. Harrison.
    It belongs to the above two bodies who commissioned it, and who have given strict instructions regarding its privacy.
    However, I'm sure that having refused to divulge any contents even to the Chair and Board members of the sectoral body that they'll be happy to divulge it to anyone who just rings up.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  263. avatar T Entertainment
    Amazing, these internets:

    http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/QueensUniversityManagementSchool/Research/ResearchClusters/ManagementandOrganisation/Staff/DrPatrickMcCole/


    I personally don't, but I'm sure a quick phone to their corporate communications departments would bear fruit.

    Or here, Invest NI even have a wee box for 'enquiries', and this is very much an enquiry, so knock yourself out:

    http://www.investni.com/index/about/contactus/enquiries.htm


    And lo, the Arts Council:

    Arts Council of Northern Ireland

    77 Malone Road, Belfast, BT9 6AQ

    T: +44 (28) 90385200 F: +44 (28) 90661715

    E: info@artscouncil-ni.org
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  264. avatar EPK
    http://nimusic.com/uploads/files/NIMIC_Economic_Impact_Study_QUESTIONNAIREv4.pdf
  265. avatar ohnoes
    Very helpful - thanks to you both. I'll drop each a line and see what, if anything, comes back by way of a reply.
  266. avatar ohnoes
    OK. I have this evening submitted the following formal request to Invest NI via their website enquiry facility.

    "Sir / madam,
    As someone involved in the NI music industry I would be interested in receiving a copy of the recently completed Economic Impact Assessment report from Dr P McCole of QUB when it becomes available.
    Can you please advise me in relation to same?
    Many thanks in advance.
    Sincerely.

    PJ Mercer"

    I don't seem to be able to upload a screenshot of the submission confirmation but I will post whatever they reply with (if anything).

    PJ
  267. avatar ohnoes
    I received a reply from investni advising me to contact nimic.
  268. avatar tinpot anto
    HAHAHAHAHA!
  269. avatar fastfude
    [quote:17a77738ac="ohnoes"]I received a reply from investni advising me to contact nimic.[/quote:17a77738ac]
    Best. Buck-pass. Ever.
  270. avatar ohnoes
    OK, I've gone back to them advising them of the NIMIC situation and they have replied advising that they have now passed my request on to their Life Sciences and Creative divisions for a reply.

    Nothing back as yet from the Arts Council.

    PJ
  271. avatar dave.cava
    The Arts Council NI will tell you they haven't seen the report and that they didn't commission it.
    NIMIC did using CIIF funding as stated on their website. (see link below)

    http://nimusic.com/news/item/600/ni-music-industry-research-survey

    ??
  272. avatar ohnoes
    Thank you for that dave.cava . I see from the linked article that the Arts Council are joint funders - as such one might reasonably expect that they might wish to see / share the outcome of their funding contribution since the commissioning body has, in the interim, been wound up.
  273. avatar feline1
    [quote:d07faad793="ohnoes"]Thank you for that dave.cava . I see from the linked article that the Arts Council are joint funders - as such one might reasonably expect that they might wish to see / share the outcome of their funding contribution since the commissioning body has, in the interim, been wound up.[/quote:d07faad793]


    Oh noes, you appear to be under the peculiar misapphrension that public funds disseminated through quangos are actually intended to produce tangible results for the benefit of the public, rather than simply provide an income stream for those on the gravy train.
    May I suggest you procure a Digital Versatile Disc of the pleasing documentary series "Yes Minister"...?
  274. avatar dave.cava
    "...rather than simply provide an income stream for those on the gravy train." :lol: well put Sir.

    http://www.cavamusic.com
  275. avatar fastfude
    As an aside, might I refer y'all to the current 'Art' issue of [url=http://www.thevacuum.org.uk/]The Vacuum[/url], wherein messrs Newton Emerson and Tim Loane have each penned critiques of arts funding, ACNI and their ilk.
  276. avatar feline1
    [quote:fa243ba4ea="fastfude"]As an aside, might I refer y'all to the current 'Art' issue of [url=http://www.thevacuum.org.uk/]The Vacuum[/url], wherein messrs Newton Emerson and Tim Loane have each penned critiques of arts funding, ACNI and their ilk.[/quote:fa243ba4ea]

    sthg sthg BBC License Fee
  277. avatar ohnoes
    [quote:911e88c494="feline1"]Oh noes, you appear to be under the peculiar misapphrension that public funds disseminated through quangos are actually intended to produce tangible results for the benefit of the public, rather than simply provide an income stream for those on the gravy train.
    May I suggest you procure a Digital Versatile Disc of the pleasing documentary series "Yes Minister"...?[/quote:911e88c494]

    Rather than draw funny analogies I'm interested in establishing just what the varying degrees of "seriousness" were that funding bodies, investni and ACNI in particular, applied to two different sectoral bodies.

    For example a minimum of £12 million to the screen NI "gravy train" over the next three years and just a couple of hundred thousands, if that, to NIMIC over the last eight years. Does that sound in any way balanced?

    It is also important to establish what, if any, input this report might play in the recently commissioned survey of the UK wide music industry which is to be undertaken on behalf of DCMS. I'd be concerned if NI were to be written off as "a musical backwater" as some have suggested or if we as a region were to be overlooked entirely simply because we no longer, for as yet inadequately explained reasons, have a sectoral body to represent our collective interests.

    Without wishing to be disingenious to NIMIC nobody with whom I interact professionally in relation to music in NI was aware of this study. As such I would have to question how, if at all, it might be representative of the activities of NI businesses involved in music.

    Having now looked at the questionnaire, thank you EPK, I can see several very real shortcomings in both the line of questioning employed and also the limited possible conclusions to be drawn from completed and returned copies.

    It is almost as if a true representation was the last thing that anyone wanted to be arrived at and that certain entities were almost willing NIMIC to fail.

    Still no initial reply from ACNI and no followup from investni to report.
  278. avatar feline1
    I hear a lot of funds were diverted this year to promote sports massage.
  279. avatar ohnoes
    I have received a formal reply from the Arts Council this evening and I await further communication from them in due course.
  280. avatar Ooopsapocalypse
    Oh, I couldn't help it.
    So where are we now?
    Back them I was communioning with a few botles of white cider because of thieving scumbags.....but seriously after 2 or so years,
    Where are we now?





    Has historical and educational value methinks.