1. avatar daveshorty
    Anyone else watch Nick Griffin making a twat of himself last night?
  2. avatar my-angel-rocks
    He did get rather mocked, and didn't really know how to answer most questions, just throwing in random populist irrelevancies to make him look better. He is just a creepy cunt.
  3. avatar fastfude
    He was pretty rubbish alright.

    I was morbidly impressed that the three other politicians still managed to act like boring, ineffective arses despite sharing the stage with the most obvious whipping boy they've ever been offered.

    The genuine anger, passion and clarity of the audience questions and comments was good though - a real measure of the sentiment the BNP engender with the public that the media haven't been able to convey thus far.
  4. avatar 10rapid
    it was a bit weird alright.
    Jack Straw banging on about his Jewish roots was the highlight for me. I think the fact that they all had pre-prepared answers to get at griffin was a bit pointless. Very little discussion actually took place. And very little was actually said by the other parties on the areas where the BNP gain their support.
    So Griffin goes on about wanting to support a western model of democracy against militant muslim ideas such as stoning to death women who are raped. Then people shout "He's a racist! He hates Muslims!" But maybe he has a point. Nobody else on the panel really dealt with this and the people at home who think all muslims want to stone rape victims will think "well, the BNP are the only ones stopping us getting ruled by Mullahs. I'll vote for him."
    And then yer man in the audience asks if Griffin would want him repatriated. So Griffin goes "No, I'd be quite happy for you to stay," but the audience shouts "He's a racist!"
    It was all a bit confusing really.

    And don't worry, I'm not a BNP supporter. I would just like to have heard what he had to say because I felt everyone went for the jugular from the start, making him seem a bit victimised, rather than giving him enough rope to hang himself. Was this maybe because some of them realised that some of his policies are attractive to a lot of voters in areas where people feel unengaged by mainstream parties, who are afraid of addressing these issues for fear of appearing racist?

    I actually thought the Lib Dem guy did best. He also had a definite record of his party trying to deal with BNP target voters and attracting their votes, rather than a lot of "Don't vote for the Nazis" rhetoric with little alternative behind it.
  5. avatar Deestroyer
    Jack Straw is the most ineffective politician and person they could have put on. The Labour party would have won more support by putting up a sign pointing at Griffin with "bad man" written on it. Every sentence from Straw was barely cogent (as usual) and delivered in such dull tones that you couldn't muster the energy to work out if it was cogent or not.
    The rest of the panel were largely ineffective also, with the only memorable attacks from that side of the desk coming from Dimbleby himself, the occasional remark from Greer and Griffin's frequent facial ticks.
    We all know Griffin is a right wing supremacist, it wasn't enough to just bring him on and go "boo, you're a white supremacist!" time would have been spent more effectively on deconstructing the mindset, as Dimbelby attempted throwing contradictions at him. The Lab/Lib/Con lot started getting somewhere with the moral compass but lost points on the immigration question having no clear message - Draw Bridge Up, Draw Bridge Down... what are you talking about, you obviously don't really know, what are you actually saying about immigration?!
    It should have been a walk in the park, but they made a dogs dinner out of it. The audience, Dimbleby and Greer just saved it.
    It reaffirmed my opinion there are no politicians in Parliament anymore, there's just civil servants who are not even sure how they got there or why they are there, and the lack of any meaningful or developed political convictions on their own behalf was evident and sad. Nick should have been destroyed and instead he was badly beatup but will survive.
    "Dick Griff... er, I mean Nick Griffin..." - nice.
  6. avatar Chi-Lite
    I agree with the two of ye.

    Chris Huhne didn't do too bad, I thought. Jack Straw was mostly useless sheerly because of his record and that of the Labourn Party in Government. He made two good points; the first when he made the point about the black and asian people fighting the nazis, and the second when he refused to jump on the Tory bandwagon and cry that there is a problem with immigration. fair play til him, he more or less just said "nah, we're not gonna stop letting people in". On Iraq he was easy prey.

    On Islam, Griffin's strongest point, and probably where he gets most votes, nobody properly discussed the issue, and Griffin was almost proven right that you can't even discuss these things. That was the one big weakness in the show, I thought. Although, in saying that, I thought Dimbleby rightly moved away from it quickly, because I suspect none of the panel had the balls or competence to discuss Islam.

    His disgraceful attack on gay people was adequately tackled by everyone, I thought.

    Then wee tory woman was a smarmy wee prick.

    Overall
    I thought Griffin could have come across worse...but he was successfully shown to be a populist liar, and an admitted manipulator and bandwagon jumper. I think that point - probably the most important point about the BNP - was made clear enough. But there are some issues where he undoubtedly made points that could be viewed with sympathy by normal, non-racist people, and was not adequately brought to book.
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  7. avatar 10rapid
    Exactly.
    I read a piece in the evening standard that said the Tories should've put William Hague on to debate with Griffin. The Baroness was largely ineffective but I don't think Hague would've had much chance to actually tear into him if he had been there.
  8. avatar The Stav
    Yeah, he did come across as a jittery twat without a clue, which was pretty much to be expected.
    I don't think anyone really expected an impassioned monologue calling for rationality and an understanding as to why Muslims, Jews, Blacks, gays and foreigners should leave Britain so as the 'indigenous' Brits could cheerily look down on the rest of the world, free of any outside influence.

    That said, I still think it's too early to gauge whether or not it did his credibility any damage to the million or so wankers who would think of voting for him. Bear in mind the show was broadcast from London, where there is virtually zero tolerance for racism and bigotry, which was reflected by the generally right-on audience. I'd be sure there were plenty of knobheads in the north of England watching who would have shared Griffins sentiments, and maybe have sympahised with him for receiving such a spit-roasting by those snotty city folk.

    It was a bit of a pity they went so deeply into Britain's immigration policy, which is clearly in tatters, and it played into Dick Griffin and the BNC's hands a wee bit.

    But overall, yeah, great gig. The cunt was wriggling like a wee worm, and he kept on denying every quote thrown at him, even though plenty of those quotes are on Youtube.
    Even Jack Straw came across as being quite dead on by comparison! *shudder*

    Anyone who missed the show- it's on BBC iPlayer.
  9. avatar churchwarden
    His view of history was hilariously wrong - "indigenous" English people...

    the clues might be in the names: Anglo-saxon, Norman conquest..

    Bonnie Greer was exceptional

    [url=http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23760044-when-bonnie-greer-met-nick-griffin.do]Your text to link here...[/url]

    (mind you, we in Northern ireland have hardly got the best track record for our tolerant views towards foreigners ; hopefully the BNP being shown up as being as fantastically bigoted and stupidly ignorant last night will change a few peoples minds locally...)
  10. avatar Chi-Lite
    Actually i think he could have been pulled up on that more.

    It is easy to paint this talk of indigenous as ridiculous nonsense given thousands of years of humans migrating, but I actually don't think the view is as simplisitc as that. These people are not completely stupid, they know about the anglo-saxon infiltration and the norman conquest. Their view of indigenous is essentially based on race. Jack Straw said it - actually the more I think of it Jack Straw actually made the most salient points. But I don't think it's adequate to reply to that with, sure what about the vikings, and normans, and all this. They know about vikings and normans. they're all teutonic brothers, remember. It should have been brought out more forcefull that "indigenous" to him means "white". This "oh what about the normans" argument doesn'#t really strike at the heart of what he's suggesting
  11. avatar churchwarden
    [quote:d10450b793]This "oh what about the normans" argument doesn'#t really strike at the heart of what he's suggesting[/quote:d10450b793]

    Clearly he did mean "white", but the Norman argument is one most people understand because it is so ingrained in the British psyche - it is one fact that everybody knows - 1066, Britain conquered by the Normans; so it is a quick way to remind people there is no idigenous people.

    It was good that they brought out his equally offensive views on gays

    It is unfortunate that for the most part most of our own politicans will not stand up and say "Europe and Europeans are Good; Immigration has brought benefits over the centuries; All Minorities add to a country's culture and all exteremist views (even those supported by religious texts / God) should be quetioned at all times).

    Though no politician wouild ever say any of that... since they would probably lose their deposit with the lack of support
  12. avatar my-angel-rocks
    Not going to link to their website but:

    [quote:feeeb32564]We use the term indigenous to describe the people whose ancestors were the earliest settlers here after the last great Ice Age and which have been complemented by the historic migrations from mainland Europe.

    The migrations of the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Norse and closely related kindred peoples have been, over the past few thousands years, instrumental in defining the character of our family of nations.[/quote:feeeb32564]

    So yes, they take into account all the various invasions, its essentially anyone who came here in the last 100 years.

    Also found this "slightly", umm... naive?

    [quote:feeeb32564]In the long run, we wish to end the conflict in Ireland by welcoming Eire as well as Ulster as equal partners in a federation of the nations of the British Isles[/quote:feeeb32564]
  13. avatar 10rapid
    Yes a tad naive that whole Federation of Islands thing. Although I recall a certain Laird Trimble of Lisnagarvey had a similar idea.

    How do the BNP feel about the immigration of their great Caucasian brothers the Poles I wonder?
  14. avatar Chi-Lite
    Ha, that's nothing that pretty much every unionist part hasn't come off with at one time or another. I believe Paisley was talking about that in the early 80s, and I remember reading somewhere that Chichester Clark had a wee idea about that.
  15. avatar fastfude
    http://twitter.com/realnickgriffin is a good laugh, especially the tweets during the show:

    [quote:ff9dcfe0bc]- i'm going to be sick

    - i'm smiling because i've got a scotch egg in my jacket pocket.

    - in fact i wasn't smiling. European law prevents me from autonomously controlling the muscles in my own face, neck and larynx.

    - fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

    - i never said that thing about "well-directed boots and fists". i actually said that I'd been "well-directed to Boots for crisps".[/quote:ff9dcfe0bc]
  16. avatar KingNeon
    I haven't seen it yet (going to watch it on the IPlayer tonight)but wouldn't a better idea have been to ask Griffen what the BNP's stance was on bread and butter issues such as health or the economy and watch him flunder there?

    No-one's surprised by his racist nonsense, but if you can point out that the BNP is a one note party without a handle on the issues then surely you've dented their support amongst swing voters.

    Also, I saw in a piece in the Daily Mirror last week saying they should have got Desmond Tutu to be on the pnael, that would have been a joy to watch, he would have had Griffen knocked out within round one.
  17. avatar The Stav
    [quote:30c79dbf86="KingNeon"]I haven't seen it yet (going to watch it on the IPlayer tonight)but wouldn't a better idea have been to ask Griffen what the BNP's stance was on bread and butter issues such as health or the economy and watch him flunder there?

    No-one's surprised by his racist nonsense, but if you can point out that the BNP is a one note party without a handle on the issues then surely you've dented their support amongst swing voters.

    [/quote:30c79dbf86]

    Aye, that's a good point, that.
  18. avatar Chi-Lite
    Nah, i totally disagree with that. Ask him about bread and butter issues and he could come up with any oul populist nonsense that he knows he'll never have to justify. It doesn't matter what policies they have on bread and butter issues, if they're racists then keep the focus on that, because that's their defining feature.
  19. avatar The Stav
    Na, I reckon he'd have been ripped to shreds if he was asked to explain exactly what he was gonna do with all the tax money if he ever got in. (Allah forbid)
  20. avatar tinpot anto
    Ah the Irish - Aryan Brothers now is it Nick?

    [img:30304eaba8]http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/90.1/images/kenny_fig04b.gif[/img:30304eaba8]

    [img:30304eaba8]http://open.salon.com/files/race-white-irish-discriminatory-cartoon-11247788891.jpg[/img:30304eaba8]
  21. avatar flackmeister
    This is dreadful, the poor little man is complaining that the Audience didn't represent Britain and was merely a lynch mob...

    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/bnpaposs+griffin+accuses+bbc+aposlynch+mobapos/3397112

    What a wanker.

    EDIT - The troops were out in force...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/23/bbc-question-time-responses-griffin

    Poor wee man.
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  22. avatar KingNeon
    Put surely any half decent politican worth his salt (I would count both Straw and Hunhe there) would be able to pull him up straight away on any populist nonsense and turn it round on him, to show he has no clue what he's talking about, if he strays off the topic of race.
  23. avatar comprachio
    Its important to bring the BNP into the debate though. Isolating them is a bad idea - it gives them a 'truth they don't want you to hear' platform. Griffin should be taken on more - and in better ways than last night. I DO think he should've been asked on bread and butter stuff because he would have to contradict his more racist ideologies to embrace the most populace of answers and could be easily brought up on it.

    I also think the protests and furore about this has worked out best for the BNP in terms of general publicity. Most of the protesters interviewed on TV sounded clueless and reactionary. Where were they all when the BNP were out canvassing for votes?!??!? They've been elected and are part of the British political system now and must be treated accordingly
  24. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:e84acf578b="The Stav"]Na, I reckon he'd have been ripped to shreds if he was asked to explain exactly what he was gonna do with all the tax money if he ever got in. (Allah forbid)[/quote:e84acf578b]

    And he'd have said "put it on the NHS, schools, stop bailing out banks" and no-one could argue with that. Sticking on the race issue was the only possible thing to do.
  25. avatar comprachio
    You could've questioned him on mixed race schools, free education and healthcare for immigrants etc etc... I don't think he would get away with buzzword answers to policy if he was on with any politician worth his salt.
  26. avatar my-angel-rocks
    But that would still be sticking on the race issue.
  27. avatar fastfude
    If he was in with a shot of being in the next government, then b'n'b policy grilling would put the pressure on. As it is, he could just give any old answer because there's no danger he'd ever have to follow through.

    He wants to be perceived as a normal politician to mask the reality of what his party stands for, so asking normal political questions plays along with that.
  28. avatar tinpot anto
    Questions like "so when all the foreign and non white doctors are gone from the nhs how do you propose meeting the massive training shortfall?"

    get into his wee all-white fantasy utopia and show the utter ballicks of it all. should have asked him to describe his vision of a whites only Britain. What's taugt in schools, foreign policy, trade policy, welfare etc.

    That's what was missing.

    Plus I agree that the other panellists lack of counter to the Islam is bad thing was fucking crap.
  29. avatar comprachio
    I'm with anto, asking about bog standard policies would only show exactly how unworkable their vision of Britain would be. Sticking to immigration gives him an easier ride as I would imagine more people than would care to admit have issues with Britain's immigration policies.
  30. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:2fe3c9ab5d="comprachio"]I'm with anto, asking about bog standard policies would only show exactly how unworkable their vision of Britain would be. Sticking to immigration gives him an easier ride as I would imagine more people than would care to admit have issues with Britain's immigration policies.[/quote:2fe3c9ab5d]

    Ah, I think we're at crossed wires here. Ya see, to me that is sticking to the racist issue. Asking "who's gonna run the hospitals when you get rid of all the foreigners" isn't really asking about bog standard policies like, is it. It's asking about his mad racist policies and how mad they are.

    But aye, they should have asked him that. They shouldn't have asked him about his view on the public sector, or the postal strike, for example. Because it doesn't fucking matter what his views are on that, he's a fucking racist, is the point.
  31. avatar daveshorty
    well here, i think it did a grand job of making him look a dick anyway, so mission accomplished in a way
  32. avatar tinpot anto
    Obama questions would have been good. Effectively you'd bevwanting to push him into describing Britain as the fascist state that his party is actually fighting for. I'd have liked that.
  33. avatar Chi-Lite
    Aye, i thought the Churchill question was a bit shite too, and they done some job of wriggling out of it. Churchill probably was a racist like. They should have just said that.
  34. avatar fastfude
    [url=http://twitter.com/markcorrigan]Peep Show's Mark Corrigan[/url] via Twitter:
    [quote:7b1a9be951]...This is brilliant, do it every week. Give it a theme-tune, call it "Let's Make The Fat Racist Cry."[/quote:7b1a9be951]

    (also
    [quote:7b1a9be951]Fantastic, Jeremy Paxman just had a loud argument about prostitutes on Newsnight. I wondered when today would come.[/quote:7b1a9be951]
    )
  35. avatar 10rapid
    they should've just got jimmy carr or someone on to take the piss. So nick, are the bnp.s immigration policies one in the eye for the liberal elite? So nick, do you believe we should be keeping an eye on the number of asylum seekers going missing from the authorities' radar? If britain is the land of the blind, would you be king?
  36. avatar rinky
    [quote:b7ce2184bb="10rapid"]they should've just got jimmy carr or someone on to take the piss. So nick, are the bnp.s immigration policies one in the eye for the liberal elite? So nick, do you believe we should be keeping an eye on the number of asylum seekers going missing from the authorities' radar? If britain is the land of the blind, would you be king?[/quote:b7ce2184bb]

    Aye, mocking disability is definitely the best way to attack fascists.
  37. avatar 10rapid
    Ha ha fair point. Wonder if he's on the DLA?
  38. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:e6d04b090a="10rapid"]they should've just got jimmy carr or someone on to take the piss. So nick, are the bnp.s immigration policies one in the eye for the liberal elite? So nick, do you believe we should be keeping an eye on the number of asylum seekers going missing from the authorities' radar? If britain is the land of the blind, would you be king?[/quote:e6d04b090a]

    Jimmy Carr, the cutting edge of political satire.
    I was kinda hoping for Mark Steel, now he could have ripped all of them to very funny shreds.
  39. avatar 10rapid
    I was thinking more along the lines of one liners.

    What are you guys? some kind of lynch mob?
  40. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:3b25b8ce27="tinpot anto"]Questions like "so when all the foreign and non white doctors are gone from the nhs how do you propose meeting the massive training shortfall?"

    get into his wee all-white fantasy utopia and show the utter ballicks of it all. should have asked him to describe his vision of a whites only Britain. What's taugt in schools, foreign policy, trade policy, welfare etc.

    That's what was missing.

    Plus I agree that the other panellists lack of counter to the Islam is bad thing was fucking crap.[/quote:3b25b8ce27]

    Nail hit suarely in the head.

    To be honest, from what I have seen, I think it was a complete shambles and not necessarily on Nick Griffin's side. I thought the audience did nothing but strengthen the propaganda that the BNP is bullied on by everyone given it was just another BNP-bashing session.

    So much for engaging in discussion with the BNP to show what a bunch of racist twats they are...
  41. avatar stevieo
    The BNP may be twats but they're also DANGEROUS. They are getting more popular. Also though, we and the rest of Europe have the DANGEROUS habit of shunting our most incompetant ministers into the European Parliament out of the way.
  42. avatar daveshorty
    a few points refuted by the independent:
    [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-holocaust-ku-klux-klan-and-other-claims-put-to-the-test-1808396.html]here[/url]
  43. avatar The Grace Jones
    [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/23/bnp-poll-boost-question-time]The Guardian suggests[/url] that this turned out rather well for the BNP. I'm not really surprised. Immediately after watching Question Time, I went and had a look at the BBC's largely revolting HYS board, which was being flooded with pro-BNP comments. Undoubtedly this was co-ordinated in advance; that kind of flooding of message boards is a technique the BNP have often employed to great effect, presumably with the knowledge that if you make it look like there's an overwhelming body of support for something (or anger against something), then many people simply go with the flow of what they perceive to be the general opinion.

    The coachloads of protesters outside - didn't achieve anything. They may have made things a little worse, but that's hard to quantify. I'm certain, though, that if they had stayed at home, pooled their brains instead of their bodies and made a coordinated effort via the internet, they might have been much more effective.

    This is the problem with, for want of a better term, "the left" - it seems to me that very often it's more important for many people to be "seen to be doing something" - even if that something is counter-active - rather than making some sort of coordinated strategic effort. The other thread regarding the BNP has some fine examples of this. The "have to be seen to be doing something" attitude is, in my opinion, very often doing more harm than good - it's chaotic, disorganized, there is no central aim. Nick Griffin was utterly lost on Question Time, absolutely - and it doesn't seem to have done him any harm at all, as I suspect he well knew it wouldn't - the BNP had a fairly effective strategy arranged in advance, and carried it out quickly - there were hundreds of pro-BNP comments on the HYS boards within ten minutes of them opening.

    One area on the show itself (and I think "show" is exactly the right word) where Nick Griffin really got the bit between his teeth was of course "Islam" - he made some comment to the effect that Britain is Christian, has always been Christian, and must stay Christian. Not one of the other panellists countered that the BNP's manifesto clearly states they believe in seperation of church and state. [i:c4d044755b]I[/i:c4d044755b] knew that, why the hell did the politicians not know it? If they knew it, why did they not say it? That, surely, knocks his Christian Britain argument on the head right there? It bothers me intensely that he seemed to know more about their policies than they knew about his - isn't knowing your enemy surely the first step?

    The only panellist who impressed me was Bonnie Greer. Baroness Warsi - it's rather difficult to take her seriously on matters of discrimination, given that she's been ferociously hating on the gays for some time now - distressingly, some of her replies when challenged on this in the past are not that dissimilar in style to Nick Griffin's. Chris Huhne's attempts at point-scoring were transparently lame.

    It is going to take something rather more considered than waving placards or throwing eggs to get rid of the BNP, and the longer it goes on, the harder it's going to be.
  44. avatar 10rapid
    a few very good points there. Again, if i sound dangerously like a BNP sympathizer, i am not! However, i wasn't aware of the baroness's views on homosexuality but wondered if the question of homosexuality was put to a lot of muslims in the audience, their response may not be that different to griffin's. From what i know, islam is very intolerant of homosexuality. More so than mainstream christianity and the tories weren't so big on ditching that legislation preventing promotion of gay relationships to school children. (forgive my ignorance but was it clause 16 or something. Can't remember). Yet it's all well and good for people to shout 'homophobe!' at griffin because he actually came out and said it. Also, no mention was made of lack straw's little barney with islam a few years ago when he was going on about the muslim women wearing veils. This is where i feel question time was lacking in debate, becoming as it did a forum for griffin bashing at the expense of any proper discussion. Like it or not, a lot of people are concerned about these issues and if they feel the bnp are the only ones willing to address them, they'll vote for them, isolated as they are from the main parties who are quickly becoming different shades of the same beige hue. Also, griffin's point about not having the blood of any muslim afghans on his hands, unlike straw, just got overlooked, not addressed.
  45. avatar Pavel
    Thoughts on Griffin: [url=http://pavelware.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/all-this-nationalism-malarky/]http://pavelware.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/all-this-nationalism-malarky/[/url]
  46. avatar Smallsquare
    I was baffled by the collective faux reverence for Churchill, everyone seemingly ignoring the insurance flogging dog of recent years.
  47. avatar The Grace Jones
    On a lighter note, here is the most fantastic [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk]Cassetteboy vs. Nick Griffin.[/url] Love it.