1. avatar huggy baps
    I recently got an iphone, set it all up, stuck music on it etc and all was grand. But the last time i plugged it in (no internet connected this time, long story) just to transfer some more music from my library to the phone, i got the following error:

    [b:b6f063234e]Apple Mobile Device Is Not Started[/b:b6f063234e]

    I've gone into Control Panel to find the 'Apple Mobile Device Support' and started it, but nothing really happens and I still get the error.

    Anyone got any ideas?
  2. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    Sell it, buy a turntable....and you're set.
  3. avatar huggy baps
    you crazy, YOU CRAAAAAAAZZY!!!
  4. avatar fastfude
    maybe this: http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=6176225#6176225
  5. avatar Recycled Alien
    "Shall we make it appear as a removable USB drive, or would it be better to put flakey communications software on the phone and the host so that it stops working if you look at it sideways?"
  6. avatar The Ronster
    Except of course it's actually a little computer, not just a phone with a music player. The vast, vast majority of people who I've heard have problems with their iPhone not communicating with their computer are Windows users, which is more to do with Microsoft's dodgy record on communicating with any mobile devices that aren't Windows Mobile ones.

    Seriously though Alien - is it some sort of compulsion with you to jump up and down and point whenever anyone has a problem with any tech that isn't Linux?

    Cause it's kind of dull.
  7. avatar Recycled Alien
    [quote:366f3f452c="The Ronster"]Seriously though Alien - is it some sort of compulsion with you to jump up and down and point whenever anyone has a problem with any tech that isn't Linux?[/quote:366f3f452c]You're quite wrong. I'm more than happy to point out stupid design decisions in Linux too, of which there are many. I don't do it so much on this forum because most people wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about.

    I'm sure you're just as impartial too. In fact, your impartiality is legendary.
  8. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:7d6e541f54="Recycled Alien"]"Shall we make it appear as a removable USB drive, or would it be better to put flakey communications software on the phone and the host so that it stops working if you look at it sideways?"[/quote:7d6e541f54]

    Generally, the ipods can be dealt with as standard removable USB devices but for a better user experience (*), its nice that the OS knows that actually, its more than just a standard storage device.

    So I'm not sure how OSX having a service daemon to handle usb devices is any different from the various service daemons that do exactly the same thing on other operating systems (say, Linux), so really, there's nothing wrong with the concept of running a service daemon to make interaction with the device easier. At least it gave a (cryptic) message about what was wrong (the service wasn't running). On linux, if hald (or one of its myriad sub-daemons), or the automounter isn't running then you're fairly fucked if you try to do anything with usb storage.

    (*) It is this user experience that you pay your extra money for, and while you may be perfectly happy running a desktop with 1997's features and a command line interface, the rest of us like things slightly better. And at the moment, no-one can beat Apple for this (and I say this as a Unix desktop developer)
  9. avatar Recycled Alien
    [quote:079ff34f4f="my-angel-rocks"]Generally, the ipods can be dealt with as standard removable USB devices but for a better user experience (*), its nice that the OS knows that actually, its more than just a standard storage device.[/quote:079ff34f4f]Yeah, I knew that you can actually access an Apple device as if it was an ordinary USB drive, but there's no point. If you do the obvious thing and just drag music files onto it, they won't play. (Doing the simple and obvious thing is my idea of a better user experience.)

    I don't believe the design is primarily about ease of use anyway, it's a commercial decision to enforce tie-in between the hardware, approved software and the music download business.
  10. avatar fastfude
    The hardware tie-in is true of course, but there is a higher commerical decision behind providing a user experience that works for the 99.9999% of the market who have no clue (and no desire to have a clue) about manually maintaining a hierarchical file system of MP3-encoded binary data files, and just want to put the iPhone in a dock and have their music magically copy over: they want to actually sell these things, and for that they have to be easy, practical and pleasant to use. So far their revenue reports are vindicating their approach.

    [quote:23eb7e5683][Apple sold] More Macs and more iPhones [in Q3 2009] than in any previous quarter in history. In a worldwide recession. With the holiday quarter still to come. Yowza.[/quote:23eb7e5683]
    http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/10/19/apple-q4-2009
  11. avatar The Ronster
    [quote:863f7e17d5="Recycled Alien"][quote:863f7e17d5="The Ronster"]Seriously though Alien - is it some sort of compulsion with you to jump up and down and point whenever anyone has a problem with any tech that isn't Linux?[/quote:863f7e17d5]You're quite wrong. I'm more than happy to point out stupid design decisions in Linux too, of which there are many. I don't do it so much on this forum because most people wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about.

    I'm sure you're just as impartial too. In fact, your impartiality is legendary.[/quote:863f7e17d5]

    A few things to address here:

    1. I'm not impartial - there are things in life that should be impartial. Reporting the news, for one. But personal opinion can't and shouldn't be for the most part. Impartiality would be the death of interesting conversation.

    2. You're claiming I'm biased, not impartial. Well, it's true, I am keener on an Apple computer environment than others, however I don't feel compelled the way you do to insist that everything a company does is daft and that the only way to do things right was devised a decade ago. People don't want to have to think about how their tech works - they just want it to do what they need it to do. If connecting to iTunes to sync an iPhone is such a horrendous atrocity to you, well, you don't have to do it. Not sure why you feel compelled to go on about the fact that you don't do it though, other than this is the internet and that's what folks do.

    Anyway - any bias or partiality I have towards an OS or product line is purely out of experience. You may have more experience, but I suspect you don't own an iPhone because of bizarrely ingrained notions of how things are done, or else you make the argument that you don't need a phone to do all that stuff. Regardless, the thing sells like bejesus for two reasons: 1. They marketed the fuck out of the product and 2. The product has ABNORMALLY high satisfaction ratings. Like, off the chart ratings.

    And the majority of iPhone owners are Windows users.

    Really don't know where I'm going with all this. I nearly broke both my legs 90 mins ago and I think I'm still in shock.
  12. avatar rentaghost
    So here, the experts.
    1) My iPhone is still switching itself off randomly
    2) when I go out for a walk the music player keeps bumping on from tune to tune a few bars into each tune.

    any ideas, barring buying a Nokia?
  13. avatar Hors D'oeuvres
    Ha...the advance of technology minus the advance of understanding....

    ....I've had my clunky Nokia brick for 7-8 years and it still hasn't failed me.......


    I suppose if modern technology WORKED, then we wouldn't have to spend more money replacing/repairing it.....
  14. avatar ConorKane
    [quote:0fbc1c1804="rentaghost"]2) when I go out for a walk the music player keeps bumping on from tune to tune a few bars into each tune. [/quote:0fbc1c1804]

    You have it on the setting where shaking your iphone causes it to skip to the next song. It must be shaking as you walk. If you go into settings, then ipod settings, you can switch this setting off.

    Hope that helps!
  15. avatar rentaghost
    Conor - if you ever come into Common Grounds on a Friday evening remind me I owe you a Malteser Square.

    You have NO idea how much that's been annoying me
  16. avatar BinaryOperator
    I have an ancient Creative.

    You drag songs on it, it plays them and you can use ID tags to sort the music....easy peasy. No soft, no drivers.

    I fucking HATE iPods. They look nice though. I bought my wife one after much nagging. iTunes has knackered my machine a couple of times. I HATE iTunes too. Haven't tried any of the replacement iPod OSs, but am tempted as I am *not* putting iTunes on any PC I own anymore.

    I have worked with/coded on Linux, Apple OSs, Windows, Unix and a few variations of mobile windows (...and some ancient legacy boxes). I have to say all the MS stuff is excellent to work with. The tools, the documentation, support etc. Apples are a pain in the ass, they keep changing shit so your soft no longer works. Backward compatibility? not for apple....I feel a rant coming on, best go home now, lol.

    Bring back OS2. Actually I want a Coleco again.

    \\GEEEEKFEST
  17. avatar salfhal
    [quote:c5968a7d75="BinaryOperator"]I have an ancient Creative.

    You drag songs on it, it plays them and you can use ID tags to sort the music....easy peasy. No soft, no drivers.

    I fucking HATE iPods. They look nice though. I bought my wife one after much nagging. iTunes has knackered my machine a couple of times. I HATE iTunes too. Haven't tried any of the replacement iPod OSs, but am tempted as I am *not* putting iTunes on any PC I own anymore.

    I have worked with/coded on Linux, Apple OSs, Windows, Unix and a few variations of mobile windows (...and some ancient legacy boxes). I have to say all the MS stuff is excellent to work with. The tools, the documentation, support etc. Apples are a pain in the ass, they keep changing shit so your soft no longer works. Backward compatibility? not for apple....I feel a rant coming on, best go home now, lol.

    Bring back OS2. Actually I want a Coleco again.

    \\GEEEEKFEST[/quote:c5968a7d75]

    In what way has iTunes knackered your systems?

    I ask because i've used it since like 2003 and never had any issues with it. It is well designed and stable in my experience.

    There's always a debate over drag and drop elitism and archivers. Personally I am meticulous about my collection including minimum bitrate, tags, gapless info etc etc so being able to do this in an environment that makes it easier is advantagous for me.

    Only gripes I've ever had with iTunes for far;

    * DRM on purchased songs - [b:c5968a7d75]now fixed[/b:c5968a7d75]

    * The inability to teir sorting - personally i'd prefer Artist>Year of Release (Album)>Track Number - [b:c5968a7d75]now fixed[/b:c5968a7d75]

    * No support for flac other than the Apple Lossless filetype
  18. avatar BinaryOperator
    [quote:708df13e8e="salfhal"][quote:708df13e8e="BinaryOperator"]I have an ancient Creative.

    You drag songs on it, it plays them and you can use ID tags to sort the music....easy peasy. No soft, no drivers.

    I fucking HATE iPods. They look nice though. I bought my wife one after much nagging. iTunes has knackered my machine a couple of times. I HATE iTunes too. Haven't tried any of the replacement iPod OSs, but am tempted as I am *not* putting iTunes on any PC I own anymore.

    I have worked with/coded on Linux, Apple OSs, Windows, Unix and a few variations of mobile windows (...and some ancient legacy boxes). I have to say all the MS stuff is excellent to work with. The tools, the documentation, support etc. Apples are a pain in the ass, they keep changing shit so your soft no longer works. Backward compatibility? not for apple....I feel a rant coming on, best go home now, lol.

    Bring back OS2. Actually I want a Coleco again.

    \\GEEEEKFEST[/quote:708df13e8e]

    In what way has iTunes knackered your systems?

    I ask because i've used it since like 2003 and never had any issues with it. It is well designed and stable in my experience.

    There's always a debate over drag and drop elitism and archivers. Personally I am meticulous about my collection including minimum bitrate, tags, gapless info etc etc so being able to do this in an environment that makes it easier is advantagous for me.

    Only gripes I've ever had with iTunes for far;

    * DRM on purchased songs - [b:708df13e8e]now fixed[/b:708df13e8e]

    * The inability to teir sorting - personally i'd prefer Artist>Year of Release (Album)>Track Number - [b:708df13e8e]now fixed[/b:708df13e8e]

    * No support for flac other than the Apple Lossless filetype[/quote:708df13e8e]

    Ahhh, see you do seem to know what you are doing, whereas the average user does not e.g. my missus.

    It ate all my HDD space autoconverting files, and left me with a system that had 3mb space on the OS drive and so would not boot. It took me to take the feckin HDD out and put into another box to sort that one...that's just bad application development. For something that is supposed to be easy to use......meh

    It used to regularly crash my win2k box on startup

    Don't even get me started on Vista. It already had issues but iTunes just screwed it, BSOD the full works. Serves me right for having a vista box tho'...

    Drag and drop elitism? do you read Macworld by any chance? elitism? you mean working like every other bloody device that shows as a disk drive? Did you drink all that lovely Apple Kool-Aid?

    I'm not knocking you for your OS choices, there is a lot of "elitism" IMO from Mac users, and a fair amount of blinkered fanaticism. I used to be a very strong Mac supporter until I worked with them, and that has tarnished 'em for me.

    Nothings perfect eh?
  19. avatar fastfude
    [quote:a658a40680]It took me to take the feckin HDD out and put into another box to sort that one...that's just bad application development.[/quote:a658a40680] Bad OS development, Shirley?

    I reiterate my point: ordinary humans do not want drag'n'drop. It is not at all intuitive to anyone who does not use computers at a technical level (and that is nearly everyone now - computers are not the domain of geeks anymore). The whole 'filing cabinet' analogy that current OSes are based on is an over-flogged horse. The metaphor is stretched too thin over use cases that were never imagined or designed-for back in the 70s.

    The modern computer market needs better and more relevant models of data management for today and they are starting to appear in the form of iTunes/iPhone, Google Docs, WebOS et al.
  20. avatar Recycled Alien
    File systems are passť? Anyway, that's not the issue. Music files (of all formats) are designed to hold their own metadata. That's a very robust, secure, distributed design. It doesn't actually matter if the files are in a heirarchy, or completely flat, or stuffed down the back of the sofa. As long as the music software can read the tags and do whatever you like in terms of sorting or categorizing, all will be well.

    The approach of some software, particularly iTunes, BUT ALSO VARIOUS LINUX PLAYERS, to put the metadata into a single, corruptible database, is a design error in my opinion.
  21. avatar fastfude
    [quote:2e38545205="Recycled Alien"]File systems are passť?[/quote:2e38545205]It's not a question of fashion, but of concept.

    Ordinary people don't get it. I'd not be surprised if most modern computer users have never worked in an office with a paper-based workflow of manilla folders and filing cabinets*.

    The analogy is lost on them, and so they just dump all their stuff on the desktop or some random place the Save As dialog offered by default, and now they can't find it again.

    I think the next generation of OSes (perhaps beginning with Google's Chrome OS) will need to seriously rethink this side of things.


    *I know and work with people who [i:2e38545205]are[/i:2e38545205] still using cabinets and folders to this day, and [i:2e38545205]still[/i:2e38545205] don't make the mental association with their computer's filing system.
  22. avatar fastfude
    [quote:550a321c33="Recycled Alien"]Music files (of all formats) are designed to hold their own metadata. That's a very robust, secure, distributed design.[/quote:550a321c33]

    All true, but once you scale past a few hundred tracks, your computer will implode as it has to scan every damn file, every damn time you open your music player of choice.

    Collating that data into a fast, searchable, cross-referencable database solves that problem and provides tools that allow you to do an awful lot more (dynamic playlists, saved searches, recommendations, etc), without compromising the above design.

    (In much the same way that storing every post on FF as a separate text file is technically fine, but good luck searching, sorting or relating any of it without bringing down the interwhat)
  23. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:f11e0aefc0="Recycled Alien"]File systems are passť?[/quote:f11e0aefc0]

    Pretty much.

    Look at the current trend for semantic datastorage, the WinFS idea from Windows. the general computer user doesn't give a shit where the data is stored, they want a custom designed program to access specific file formats, witness the rise in popularity of content management programs: itunes, banshee, amarok, iphoto, fspot etc, and the lack of real work going into "File manager" type programs.


    [quote:f11e0aefc0]Anyway, that's not the issue. Music files (of all formats) are designed to hold their own metadata.[/quote:f11e0aefc0]

    Actually, they're not.
    MP3 has no metadata format officially, ID3 has been stuck onto it.

    [quote:f11e0aefc0]That's a very robust, secure, distributed design. It doesn't actually matter if the files are in a heirarchy, or completely flat, or stuffed down the back of the sofa. As long as the music software can read the tags and do whatever you like in terms of sorting or categorizing, all will be well.[/quote:f11e0aefc0]

    And again, its not.
    Not all the required data can be stored by all the metadata formats: for example
    star rating, play count, disc number.
    Things you don't want to store in "in file metadata": album art (why do I want 12 copies of the same image taking up space?)

    [quote:f11e0aefc0]The approach of some software, particularly iTunes, BUT ALSO VARIOUS LINUX PLAYERS, to put the metadata into a single, corruptible database, is a design error in my opinion.[/quote:f11e0aefc0]

    This approach is so that it is fast, and has all the metadata available immediatly at start up.
    Any player that wants to display the music in any layout other than a flat list of files is FUCKED if the data is not available at start up.

    I have 20,000 music files, do you know how long that takes to extract all the required metadata? 15minutes. Do you know how long it takes to extract all the required metadata from the database? 0.413seconds from cold. (*)

    Modern music players (i.e. not your favourite Winamp) need to take all that metadata, and sort out "what albums does this artist have", "what tracks are on this album?", "how many artists make up this Various Artists album?". To do this requires a database of all the metadata. You may not like (or have any need for) the concept, but it is the only way to do what any modern media player needs to do.

    And finally, to paraphrase filesystem guru Alan Cox: why are you concerned about putting your metadata in one more corruptible database? You already do, its called the filesystem.

    (* Not to mention all the extra wear this puts on the hard drive increasing the chances that the scenario hinted at by Alan Cox happens)
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  24. avatar huggy baps
    [img:c36783c4eb]http://popdose.com/wp-content/uploads/homer-goes-to-college21.png[/img:c36783c4eb]
  25. avatar fastfude
    [img:b7300e933f]http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/04/weekend_diversion_do_tinfoil_h/tinfoil-hat.jpg[/img:b7300e933f]
  26. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:f40b0740e7="huggy baps"][img:f40b0740e7]http://popdose.com/wp-content/uploads/homer-goes-to-college21.png[/img:f40b0740e7][/quote:f40b0740e7]

    Hey, having spent the last year writing a music player, I'm allowed to be a geek about it.
  27. avatar BinaryOperator
    [quote:c60e82e28c="my-angel-rocks"][quote:c60e82e28c="huggy baps"][img:c60e82e28c]http://popdose.com/wp-content/uploads/homer-goes-to-college21.png[/img:c60e82e28c][/quote:c60e82e28c]

    Hey, having spent the last year writing a music player, I'm allowed to be a geek about it.[/quote:c60e82e28c]

    Hey! I wrote a couple of encoders for Video and Audio. Not a whole lot of fun I must say (though the range encoding/huffman video stuff was interesting for a while). All that work went in the bin around 2001 when updated codecs were released for public use (we had our own streaming web video thingamy). But hey for a while I really was at the bleeding edge of tech dev. For a while, lol.

    If you want to hear about bad, right now and for the last year I have been managing/coding/fucking up a project for XP-W7 platforms. I have inherited an old codebase and have had to "make it work". It is in VB6. Yes. VB6. With some C++ ocx and some C dlls just for fun. My boss even has pointy hair, but he's not quite as incompetent as Dilbert's....

    It is surprising how many techy people play music in one form or another.

    \\\\\\\\\\\slashy!
  28. avatar salfhal
    [quote="BinaryOperator"][quote="salfhal"][quote:c89f530619="BinaryOperator"]
    Drag and drop elitism? do you read Macworld by any chance? elitism? you mean working like every other bloody device that shows as a disk drive? Did you drink all that lovely Apple Kool-Aid?

    I'm not knocking you for your OS choices, there is a lot of "elitism" IMO from Mac users, and a fair amount of blinkered fanaticism. I used to be a very strong Mac supporter until I worked with them, and that has tarnished 'em for me.

    Nothings perfect eh?[/quote:c89f530619]

    No I don't read Macworld, in fact I use both Windows and OSX and don't consider myself a Mac fanboy, however I can easily state that it is a superior operating system.

    iTunes = good
    Noobs = bad
  29. avatar BinaryOperator
    I'm not stating a preference for any OS, they all have issues IMO. I've turned into the jaded negative bastard I always thought I would never be. I blame it on working with every bloody OS since '95.

    I used to love macs. They still make nice boxes ;)

    I know a fair few people who believe St Steve can do no wrong....I'm talking people who wear apple logo wear as a fashion statement ;) (looks at microsoft "geek" badge on own coat and Microsoft office penlight in coat pocket, hmmmm - at least my logo crap was free!, lol).