1. avatar T Entertainment
    it sez here:


    The internationally-acclaimed comedian and political activist Mark Thomas has praised the people of Belfast and bitterly criticised local politicians following his sold-out show at the Tenth Cathedral Quarter Arts Festival.

    Thomas was speaking after a Festival audience voted last week for their policy choices as part of the UK-wide 'People's Manifesto' which forms part of Thomas current British tour.



    The campaigning comedian said that the Belfast Audience had set a "unique precedent" by demanding two policies on the night of his performance.

    The Belfast policies selected by Festival goers were the banning of the wearing of pyjamas outdoors and that the 1967 Abortion Act should be introduced to Northern Ireland.



    Thomas said he was delighted with the two policies called for in Belfast and paid tribute to the city's sense of 'seriousness and silliness'.



    He said: "The Belfast manifesto decisions where brilliant. They went from the sublime to the ridiculous, which is what this tour and the People's Manifesto is all about. Belfast also refused to accept just one policy, which I thought was great. The call for the banning of the wearing of pyjamas and for the introduction of the 1967 Abortion Act shows just how sophisticated people are here and also what a sense of fun they have. The people of Belfast have really highlighted what this is all about. Comedy should be silly and enjoyable but it can also have a serious, enquiring side to it as well and can be used to try to make a change. That has never been better exemplified than in Belfast.



    Thomas, whose mother was a midwife, also got behind the audiences' call for the instatement of the abortion act which is law in all other parts of the UK. He described the absence of the law in Northern Ireland as "an absolute outrage". He also condemned local politicians for not backing the enforcement of the act, and leaving many young pregnant women to travel at great cost to Britain to have often dangerous and traumatic abortive procedures.



    He added: "It's incredibly disgusting that a part of the UK still has such an oppressive abortion law. If certain political parties want to be British yet don't want the same rule of law as the rest of the UK, then they should make their minds up. Either they should go the whole hog and split totally from British rule of law or accept that this incredibly important act has to be introduced here. They can't have it both ways."



    Other manifesto policies across the UK have included the call for pay-as-you-go MPs, the introduction of a three-day weekend, to make party political manifestos legally binding and that Margaret Thatcher should pay for her own funeral! Thomas has pledged that he will fight for all the manifesto pledges when he finishes the tour.

    "We are trying to create a genuine People's Manifesto because, looking around the UK now, you can't help but realise that we seem to be up a certain creek, economically, politically, socially and just totally! Where are the great ideas, theories and visions to help us in our hour of need? On my current tour, each audience across the country gets to come up with a policy, which I will include in the final manifesto and then campaign upon. And that most definitely includes the call to introduce the 1967 Abortion Act into Northern Ireland as soon as humanly possible."
  2. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:03e16e302d="T Entertainment"]He added: "It's incredibly disgusting that a part of the UK still has such an oppressive abortion law. If certain political parties want to be British yet don't want the same rule of law as the rest of the UK, then they should make their minds up. Either they should go the whole hog and split totally from British rule of law or accept that this incredibly important act has to be introduced here. They can't have it both ways.[/quote:03e16e302d]

    Well, he's got a point there.
  3. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:c91ecb4b98="T Entertainment"]The Belfast policies selected by Festival goers were the banning of the wearing of pyjamas outdoors and that the 1967 Abortion Act should be introduced to Northern Ireland.[/quote:c91ecb4b98]

    it was only going to be the pyjamas one until he realised that it was making a mockery of the idea and the only other one left was the abortion act.

    Feline1 will be pleased to know that 3rd place was abolition of segregated schooling.
  4. avatar Orzo
    How about also banning said Pajama wearers from pushing their pram out from behind a blocked view first to make sure the road is clear for them to walk across?

    I saw Thomas a few years ago at the festival and he was fantastic. The first half he made the audience cry with laughter and with sadness in the second half.

    It's great that he got Straw to remove his DNA records too.

    Thomas for PM. I'm surprised he doesn't try for it.
  5. avatar leesub60
    am i the only one that thinks he should be shot with a ball of his own dung?
  6. avatar feline1
    [quote:3b45f2b567="leesub60"]am i the only one that thinks he should be shot with a ball of his own dung?[/quote:3b45f2b567]


    well insecure spides will always be irritated by articulate funny people ripping the establishment to shreds, but such spides should be killed, so it doesn't really matter.
  7. avatar T Entertainment
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/14/mps-expenses-mark-thomas

    :smt041
  8. avatar leesub60
    [quote:9f224104c8="feline1"][quote:9f224104c8="leesub60"]am i the only one that thinks he should be shot with a ball of his own dung?[/quote:9f224104c8]


    well insecure spides will always be irritated by articulate funny people ripping the establishment to shreds, but such spides should be killed, so it doesn't really matter.[/quote:9f224104c8]
    insecure spides are probably too busy wetting their knickers at lee evans to know who mark thomas is.
  9. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:ae77ff0d93="leesub60"]insecure spides are probably too busy wetting their knickers at lee evans[/quote:ae77ff0d93]

    But come on...he does funny voices and falls over. Whats not funny there?
  10. avatar leesub60
    [quote:fa8a7face8="my-angel-rocks"][quote:fa8a7face8="leesub60"]insecure spides are probably too busy wetting their knickers at lee evans[/quote:fa8a7face8]

    But come on...he does funny voices and falls over. Whats not funny there?[/quote:fa8a7face8]
    i know, it's like he's norman wisdom on acid......
    or something.


    :roll:
  11. avatar ryanego
    [quote:83818d3554="T Entertainment"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/14/mps-expenses-mark-thomas

    :smt041[/quote:83818d3554] :smt041
  12. avatar ryanego
    The more I step back from this and try to evaluate it calmly, without letting my emotions colour my thinking, the worse it becomes.

    These are hilarious -

    Effectively - "stealing a TV is ok because I didn't steal a helipad.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8051091.stm

    "It's different for MPs"
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8051222.stm
  13. avatar Gogs
    How about mandatory abortions for outdoor pyjama-wearers?

    Although I suppose that's not technically abortion anymore.
  14. avatar T Entertainment
    The Daily Mail is also running a fund for private prosecutions.

    Poor wee Malik tho, apparently if we don't stop this beastliness, 'we will have no democracy left'!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8051091.stm
  15. avatar Gavin McKay Fan
    [quote:0b8dcff36c="POSITIVExYOUTH"][quote:0b8dcff36c="T Entertainment"]He added: "It's incredibly disgusting that a part of the UK still has such an oppressive abortion law. If certain political parties want to be British yet don't want the same rule of law as the rest of the UK, then they should make their minds up. Either they should go the whole hog and split totally from British rule of law or accept that this incredibly important act has to be introduced here. They can't have it both ways.[/quote:0b8dcff36c]

    Well, he's got a point there.[/quote:0b8dcff36c]

    He doesn't really. I'm in favour of extending the Abortion Act to Northern Ireland but that's like saying "Your only choices are vote for Bob McCartney or Republican Sinn Fein." The whole point of the Good Friday Agreement was that an either/or solution was not viable in Northern Ireland.

    It's just a cheap shot. Northern Ireland has been a distinct legal jurisdiction since its creation and the point of the Assembly is to allow the voters and politicians of Northern Ireland to fashion the law.

    Mark Thomas should stop his Imperialist British rhetoric.
  16. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Imperialist British rethoric? Hardly.
    Northern Ireland has the same constitution as the rest of Britain, it is ruled by the same sovereign and government (to a certain extent), etc. As the status of Northern Ireland is that of a province part of the United Kingdom, Mark Thomas is really not employing British imperialist rethoric. He is simply stating the obvious.

    And also, I never get why people often come up with the whole argument you just came up with in regards to the Good Friday Agreement. It's not really a situation of "either or". Independence would be "either or", but just agreeing on stuff but retaining the same status really isn't.
  17. avatar feline1
    [quote:e911f257ff="Gavin McKay Fan"][quote:e911f257ff="POSITIVExYOUTH"][quote:e911f257ff="T Entertainment"]He added: "It's incredibly disgusting that a part of the UK still has such an oppressive abortion law. If certain political parties want to be British yet don't want the same rule of law as the rest of the UK, then they should make their minds up. Either they should go the whole hog and split totally from British rule of law or accept that this incredibly important act has to be introduced here. They can't have it both ways.[/quote:e911f257ff]

    Well, he's got a point there.[/quote:e911f257ff]

    He doesn't really. I'm in favour of extending the Abortion Act to Northern Ireland but that's like saying "Your only choices are vote for Bob McCartney or Republican Sinn Fein." The whole point of the Good Friday Agreement was that an either/or solution was not viable in Northern Ireland.

    It's just a cheap shot. Northern Ireland has been a distinct legal jurisdiction since its creation and the point of the Assembly is to allow the voters and politicians of Northern Ireland to fashion the law.

    Mark Thomas should stop his Imperialist British rhetoric.[/quote:e911f257ff]


    Eh? Spides should be killed, not allowed to fashion laws!
    Be reasonable!
  18. avatar T Entertainment
    :lol:



    This issue is, I'm afraid, the glaring Achilles Heel of The Left in NI.
    It was very rude of him to bring it up like this.
    Back to your seats, nothing to see. Move along now.


    www.easyjet.com
    www.stenaline.com
  19. avatar Gavin McKay Fan
    [quote:9cf2660254="POSITIVExYOUTH"]Imperialist British rethoric? Hardly.
    Northern Ireland has the same constitution as the rest of Britain, it is ruled by the same sovereign and government (to a certain extent), etc. As the status of Northern Ireland is that of a province part of the United Kingdom, Mark Thomas is really not employing British imperialist rethoric. He is simply stating the obvious.

    And also, I never get why people often come up with the whole argument you just came up with in regards to the Good Friday Agreement. It's not really a situation of "either or". Independence would be "either or", but just agreeing on stuff but retaining the same status really isn't.[/quote:9cf2660254]

    The constitution of the United Kingdom (in so much as it exists) acknowledges three distinct legal jurisdictions: England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The laws in those jurisdictions are not identical (for example, it is a criminal offence to charge someone for the release of their clamped car in Scotland but not in England & Wales or Northern Ireland).

    The Imperialist Mark Thomas demands that Northern Ireland conform to an English norm. He disregards the right of the people of Northern Ireland to self determination, as set out in the Good Friday Agreement, and acknowledged even by that great Imperialist Tony Blair.
  20. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Isn't his point more that a: There really should be appropriate access to the full range of *insert preferred loaded term to suit viewpoint* for women here (here, in this case referring to both jurisdictions on the island), and b: it's amusingly hypocritical of the "more British than the people of Britain" types to studiously ignore the legal precedents established in "mainland" UK as and when it suits their own narrow agenda (see also: Licencing Laws, Sunday Trading etc.). The "imperialist British rhetoric" he's apparently employing is not actually anything of the kind, but a lampoon of the DUP et al. As i recall, Thomas is pretty squarely in the constitutional issue being a question of democratic consent camp, with some inclination toward Irish nationalism as a whole.
  21. avatar Gavin McKay Fan
    As regards the first point, yes that probably is his point. For what it's worth, I agree.

    However, as to the second point, the DUP have never equated Britishness with Englishness. The only political party in Northern Ireland that have advocated the integration of Northern Ireland into the legal system of England & Wales was Robert McCartney's UKUP. It's perfectly consistent to consider one's self British, Northern Irish and distinct from the English and Welsh.

    Mark Thomas, no doubt blinded by his Imperialist leanings, fails to see this.
  22. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:09f4c7302d="T Entertainment"][img:09f4c7302d]http://www.legendgames.co.uk/acatalog/MountainTroll%5B1%5D.jpg[/img:09f4c7302d][/quote:09f4c7302d] :lol:
  23. avatar feline1
    Apparently there's a bit of a scandal in the Hebrides at the moment, cos they're planning to VIOLATE THE SABBATH and have ferries to the islands on Sundays.

    So what are you whingeing about in Ulster? You can still have an abortion on the Sabbath by getting the Seacat or Easyjet.
  24. avatar Bones
    Hahahah amazing. You would think this fella would do a bit of research on Mark Thomas before he starts calling him an imperialist. Fantastic blunder.
  25. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:a127db4dd4="Gavin McKay Fan"]The Imperialist Mark Thomas demands that Northern Ireland conform to an English norm. He disregards the right of the people of Northern Ireland to self determination, as set out in the Good Friday Agreement, and acknowledged even by that great Imperialist Tony Blair.[/quote:a127db4dd4]

    Here, you either are taking the piss or you are so blindly ignorant it's scary.

    Right to self determination of the people of Northern Ireland my balls.
    If there really was such a right exercised in Northern Ireland then explain to me why the Republican/Nationalist communities cannot legally establish themselves as independent entities from the United Kingdom if they wished to do so.
  26. avatar Chi-Lite
    Cause at certain points in history, [i:33835614ca]borders[/i:33835614ca] are drawn around bits of land. The bits of land inside them then become[i:33835614ca] states[/i:33835614ca]. If the state is a [i:33835614ca]democracy[/i:33835614ca], the people living in them bits of land become an [i:33835614ca]electorate[/i:33835614ca]. Then, when those people [i:33835614ca]vote[/i:33835614ca] on anything, a [i:33835614ca]majority[/i:33835614ca] of that [i:33835614ca]electorate[/i:33835614ca] is needed for the vote to succeed.

    Unfortunately, self determination doesn't mean that every individual person or group just does what they want. It's shite like, but that's the word, up.
  27. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Well, actually no.

    What you say is right in the context of liberal democracy, you are not at fault there. But that is still not self-determination proper.

    Self-determination means that a 'people', and I'll grant that is a pain in the ass for anyone to define what 'people' mean, has a right to determine their own political status within a particular State or even go the whole length as declaring independence without having external interference.

    The issue is that the term 'self-determination' has been misused so much in the past that a lot of people have an unclear idea of what it actually is.
  28. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Double post
  29. avatar Chi-Lite
    ah, right, a "people".

    sorry, I thought you were just talking oul shite.

    What about me and my dog, can we be a "people"? That would be class, wouldn't it. If I could call me and my dog a "people" I'd start my own racist movement.

    And I don't even have a dog. But my ma does. Can me and my ma's dog call ourselves a people?
  30. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Come on, you too know what I mean with 'people', ie. the ole cultural, social, linguistical etc. stuff.
  31. avatar Chi-Lite
    Tha's what I'm saying, me and my ma's oul dog.

    The problem is how far do you break it down, you know? Does the differences have to be culture, social, and linguistic, any one of the three, or two of three? And what is your culture, reaallllly, like? Can you break it up into mods and rockers, or hipdogs and teddy boys? Or language, do we use dialects too, or just proper languages? where's the boul dividing point, eh? What divides us, brother from brother? Come on, let's just be united and be done with it. New World Order, come on. Bobby Conn.

    this is the dawning of the age of aquarius, the age of aquaaarius.

    Aquaaaaaaariussss. Aqqqqquariuuusssss
  32. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    And I know what you mean, which is why I said it's a pain in the arse trying to define what a 'people' is.

    Yet that does not take away from the fact that a majority voting one way rather than on another is not self-determination of people. So my point of how talking of self-determination of people or such a right in the context of Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement is a load of bollocks.
  33. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:9b4765ea0c="POSITIVExYOUTH"]a majority voting one way rather than on another is not self-determination of people.[/quote:9b4765ea0c]

    Unless that majority happens to be a "people". And, as you can't say what a "people" is, it makes no odds, eh? What if I were to say to you that that majority voting one way rather than another constitutes a people? Eh? Clever trousers?
  34. avatar Gavin McKay Fan
    [quote:851b5e7d8a="POSITIVExYOUTH"][quote:851b5e7d8a="Gavin McKay Fan"]The Imperialist Mark Thomas demands that Northern Ireland conform to an English norm. He disregards the right of the people of Northern Ireland to self determination, as set out in the Good Friday Agreement, and acknowledged even by that great Imperialist Tony Blair.[/quote:851b5e7d8a]

    Here, you either are taking the piss or you are so blindly ignorant it's scary.

    Right to self determination of the people of Northern Ireland my balls.
    If there really was such a right exercised in Northern Ireland then explain to me why the Republican/Nationalist communities cannot legally establish themselves as independent entities from the United Kingdom if they wished to do so.[/quote:851b5e7d8a]

    *Wearily* You can get into semantics about what constitutes a people. I'll leave you to it.

    What do you mean "legally?" Are you familiar with the UN criteria for recognising a state? It's not just NI Nationalists who can't just set up a new country, y'know. You don't collect ten crisp packets and get a border.

    Or do you envisage the Westminster Parliament passing an Act called "The Hairbrained Scheme to Permit Derry, South Armagh and Most of West Belfast (But Not The Shankill) to Secede from the UK without Reference to the Many People Who Might Not Be So Keen Act 2009?"

    In 1998 both the SDLP and Sinn Fein supported the Good Friday Agreement. It was endorsed by 71% of the people who turned out to vote in NI. The Good Friday Agreement provided that if a majority of people within NI wished to secede from the UK it could.

    The Nationalist community endorsed the system under which they are governed through a referendum. They acknowledged that Unionists are people with feelings too. It's simply not reasonable to suggest that Nationalists cannot exercise self determination because they cannot chose to leave the UK and set up on their own without reference to their neighbours, who might feel differently about it. You're drawing an arbitrary line between Nationalists and Unionists, making out that one community should be able to act unilaterally and ignoring the fact that they are all jumbled up in the same streets and have to live beside each other.
  35. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:d9a9992d77="Gavin McKay Fan"]
    *Wearily* You can get into semantics about what constitutes a people. I'll leave you to it.

    What do you mean "legally?" Are you familiar with the UN criteria for recognising a state? It's not just NI Nationalists who can't just set up a new country, y'know. You don't collect ten crisp packets and get a border.

    Or do you envisage the Westminster Parliament passing an Act called "The Hairbrained Scheme to Permit Derry, South Armagh and Most of West Belfast (But Not The Shankill) to Secede from the UK without Reference to the Many People Who Might Not Be So Keen Act 2009?"

    In 1998 both the SDLP and Sinn Fein supported the Good Friday Agreement. It was endorsed by 71% of the people who turned out to vote in NI. The Good Friday Agreement provided that if a majority of people within NI wished to secede from the UK it could.

    The Nationalist community endorsed the system under which they are governed through a referendum. They acknowledged that Unionists are people with feelings too. It's simply not reasonable to suggest that Nationalists cannot exercise self determination because they cannot chose to leave the UK and set up on their own without reference to their neighbours, who might feel differently about it. You're drawing an arbitrary line between Nationalists and Unionists, making out that one community should be able to act unilaterally and ignoring the fact that they are all jumbled up in the same streets and have to live beside each other.[/quote:d9a9992d77]

    Despite most of what you say is right, it still does not change the fact that it has fuck all to do with the right to self-determination of peoples.

    Obviously there are limitations, but that is all to do with issues of territorial integrity. It has become the rule that for independence you need a majority vote so that countries have an insurance against getting severely fucked up if people decide to go their own way. So it has fuck all to do with the right of self-determination of peoples being respected or not.

    Wether it is realistic or not, feasible or not is a completely other argument and problem. But still nothing to do with such right being respected.

    And Chi, any argument about there being one big 'Northern Irish people' is a bit silly when there is the Good Friday Agreement involved.
  36. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:b2fd3dbf66="POSITIVExYOUTH"]it has fuck all to do with the right to self-determination of peoples.[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    Of course it does. It is claimed that those people who voted for the Good Friday Agreement are a "people", and that therefore that agreement is an expression of "self-determination of "a people".

    As we've yet to formulate a definition of "a people", you can't really argue, can you? Unless you have a definition, into which that does not fit? So what is it?

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]It has become the rule that for independence you need a majority vote[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    A majority vote of who? A "people"?

    this is just so much hypothetical half-assed bolliox like.

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]And Chi, any argument about there being one big 'Northern Irish people' is a bit silly when there is the Good Friday Agreement involved.[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    Don't talk nonsense. why can't you claim that those who voted for the Agreement thus constituted themselves a "people", and then, through that agreement, expressed a right to self-determination.

    Hold on....what is a "people" again????

    This is fucking first year politic student ballix, it really is.

    I'm not even a unionist, or a willing citizen of Northern Ireland, but it's silly hypothetical theoretical half-assed ballix about "people" that you can't even define that holds up progress in this (32 county) country.

    Fuck me, no wonder the unionists don't want a united Ireland, with all this ballix about what a "people" is.

    Wooohoooooo We're All the One now. remember the Sawdoctors.

    Or even Depeche mode. People are people.

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]
    those who did not vote in favour of the Good Friday Agreement that have seen their opinion largely ignored.[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    Right. so they're "another people". As the man said, you can't please all the people all the time. One "people"'s self determination is another "people's" dictatorship of the majority.

    All "peoples" can't have self-determination...everybody would have to have their own wee state.

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    "It has become the rule that for independence you need a majority vote[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    A majority vote of who? A "people"?...or a majority of every "people"??

    this is just so much hypothetical half-assed bolliox like.

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]but again I refer to those people who were not in agreement with the Good Friday Agreement.[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]


    Yes, another people.

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]A majority vote does not mean that everyone will agree so it's really bollocks to say that it corresponds with self-determination of people.[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    Right, so "self-determination of a "people"" means that everbody has to agree, even all the other "peoples"? what a lot of shite.

    [quote:b2fd3dbf66]If you are talking in the broader sense of all inhabitants of Northern Ireland then they are not a people precisely because of what the document states and implies.[/quote:b2fd3dbf66]

    Actually, the document explicitly states that yes, they are a people. and the people who don't agree with it....well, they're another people. they can look for their own self-determination.

    [/quote]If you are talking of the two different communities then they are a "people". But yet only the majority section of a "people".[/quote]

    Maybe the minority aren't really part of that "people", but are a different "people"

    fuck this....as we've no idea what a people is, you're talking balls.

    Me and my ma are a people, and we want self-determination for Dermott Hill

    NOW!
    Last edited on , 3 times in total.
  37. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:268cac6535="Chi-Lite"]
    Of course it does. It is claimed that those people who voted for the Good Friday Agreement are a "people", and that therefore that agreement is an expression of "self-determination of "a people".
    [/quote:268cac6535]

    Simply because they worked with the rules that have become the norm all across the globe for this sort of things.
    And that is without taking into consideration those who did not vote in favour of the Good Friday Agreement that have seen their opinion largely ignored.

    [quote:268cac6535="Chi-Lite"]
    "It has become the rule that for independence you need a majority vote"

    A majority vote of who? A "people"?

    this is just so much hypothetical half-assed bolliox like.
    [/quote:268cac6535]

    Yes, but again I refer to those people who were not in agreement with the Good Friday Agreement.
    A majority vote does not mean that everyone will agree so it's really bollocks to say that it corresponds with self-determination of people.

    [quote:268cac6535="Chi-Lite"]
    Yes. so why aren't the people who voted for the Agreement a "people".
    [/quote:268cac6535]

    If you are talking in the broader sense of all inhabitants of Northern Ireland then they are not a people precisely because of what the document states and implies.
    If you are talking of the two different communities then they are a "people". But yet only the majority section of a "people".
  38. avatar The Stav
    Ha ha! Bring on the glorious revolution- United Northern Ireland! Fuck the Free-staters and the Brits!
    Only joking of course. But a United Northern Ireland's the only way forward. If the Scots and the Welsh can be self determined, why can't we? We just need to stop pretending to be religious and boot the selfish dinosaur c*nts out of Stormont. I'm free later if anyone fancies giving me a hand? Terri Hooley for president!
  39. avatar Bones
    What difference does it make? Irish state, British state, self-governing region/State with ties to either of the above. If we continue to put our future in the hands of balding, greedy conservative gobshites no-matter what state we are part of we're fucked. You can sugarcoat it and justify it any way you like meanwhile people continue to get shafted. These are the facts. Fastfude and politics doesn't mix Bob. Too many know it all's up in here.
  40. avatar Gavin McKay Fan
    [quote:a92d8e2183="POSITIVExYOUTH"][quote:a92d8e2183="Gavin McKay Fan"]
    *Wearily* You can get into semantics about what constitutes a people. I'll leave you to it.

    What do you mean "legally?" Are you familiar with the UN criteria for recognising a state? It's not just NI Nationalists who can't just set up a new country, y'know. You don't collect ten crisp packets and get a border.

    Or do you envisage the Westminster Parliament passing an Act called "The Hairbrained Scheme to Permit Derry, South Armagh and Most of West Belfast (But Not The Shankill) to Secede from the UK without Reference to the Many People Who Might Not Be So Keen Act 2009?"

    In 1998 both the SDLP and Sinn Fein supported the Good Friday Agreement. It was endorsed by 71% of the people who turned out to vote in NI. The Good Friday Agreement provided that if a majority of people within NI wished to secede from the UK it could.

    The Nationalist community endorsed the system under which they are governed through a referendum. They acknowledged that Unionists are people with feelings too. It's simply not reasonable to suggest that Nationalists cannot exercise self determination because they cannot chose to leave the UK and set up on their own without reference to their neighbours, who might feel differently about it. You're drawing an arbitrary line between Nationalists and Unionists, making out that one community should be able to act unilaterally and ignoring the fact that they are all jumbled up in the same streets and have to live beside each other.[/quote:a92d8e2183]

    Despite most of what you say is right, it still does not change the fact that it has fuck all to do with the right to self-determination of peoples.

    Obviously there are limitations, but that is all to do with issues of territorial integrity. It has become the rule that for independence you need a majority vote so that countries have an insurance against getting severely fucked up if people decide to go their own way. So it has fuck all to do with the right of self-determination of peoples being respected or not.

    Wether it is realistic or not, feasible or not is a completely other argument and problem. But still nothing to do with such right being respected.

    And Chi, any argument about there being one big 'Northern Irish people' is a bit silly when there is the Good Friday Agreement involved.[/quote:a92d8e2183]

    Which of these is 'a people?'

    (a) Irish
    (b) Northern Irish
    (c) Inuit
    (d) Jew
    (e) Tamil
    (f) Wookie
  41. avatar feline1
    A 'people' without pets?
    With no need for silly vets?