1. avatar T Entertainment
    I knew this was coming from the minute that fundraising single was announced, it only took three days to migrate from Slugger O'Toole to the front page of the tabloids:

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/single-minded-eoghan-14028166.html

    At the RIR parade today there was a big, professionally made banner right in front of the City Hall: EOGHAN QUIGG AND THE X FACTOR SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.
    Is there nothing so anodyne that we can't cook-up a parochial squabble fest over?

    Roger is a huge JLS fan, btw.
  2. avatar Danny Lynch
    that banner of the x factor is a fuckin disgrace. like fair enough for the british public to support their troops and all that malarky.. but only here would some feckin eejit make a banner with a statement as ridiculous as that. you might as well say coronation street support 'our troops' if one auld granny wears a poppy in the rovers. since when does the x factor have any political influence. its a joke of a programme in the first place. stuff like this just makes me hate this place more every day
  3. avatar belezabaub
    I believe that the Royal British Legion is a worthy charity. Not because of my religion, not because I support the british army or anything like that but because I'm a human being. If I saw someone on the street who had been hurt I'd help them. I don't equate support of the Royal British Legion with anything political.

    Irrespective of the validity of the war fought, injured soldiers need help. Those on the front line are very often the first hurt and often the last to know why they are even fighting. I hate McDonalds because they sell shitty food, I don't hate the guy behind the counter serving me the shitty food because it isn't his fault McDonalds sell shitty food, is it?

    I'd would have thought that there are much better charities that X Factor could be raising money for. Perhaps families who have lost their homes due to the economic crisis. I think they miscalculated public opinion, the Eoghan thing is only part of problem. Muslims too are being urged by extremists not to support the single. In my opinion neither the X factor nor The Royal British Legion should be considered to be political or used as a political tool.
  4. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:28b32d292e]Those on the front line are very often the first hurt and often the last to know why they are even fighting.[/i:28b32d292e]

    Well, there you go. Why don't the cannon fodder grow a fucking brain and decide that they don't want to die for Tony Blair / Sexface Brown or any other worthless politician?
    The government can't even be arsed giving them the correct equipment, what does that say about how much the fodder are valued?

    What did they think was going to happen when they joined an army?

    Frankly I'm more concerned with the innocent civilians of Iraq / Afghanistan than Bertie Big Balls who fancies himself as a bit of an Action Man.
  5. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:f9e31cb5dc="Jimmy Seagus"][i:f9e31cb5dc]Those on the front line are very often the first hurt and often the last to know why they are even fighting.[/i:f9e31cb5dc]

    Well, there you go. Why don't the cannon fodder grow a fucking brain and decide that they don't want to die for Tony Blair / Sexface Brown or any other worthless politician?
    The government can't even be arsed giving them the correct equipment, what does that say about how much the fodder are valued?

    What did they think was going to happen when they joined an army?

    Frankly I'm more concerned with the innocent civilians of Iraq / Afghanistan than Bertie Big Balls who fancies himself as a bit of an Action Man.[/quote:f9e31cb5dc]

    Spot on.
  6. avatar comprachio
    spot on nothing... its not as black and white an issue as that.

    I don't support the war in Iraq/afghanistan in any way but the whole poor 'innocent civillians of Iraq' thing does my head in. While there are undoubtedly a majority of innocent people in Iraq that don't want war there are also plenty of bad bastards that are happy to kill not just soldiers but their own countrymen.

    To trivialise it into such a black and white argument the way Jimmy Seagus has done foolish. Anyone who's lived in Northern Ireland for more than 20 years should know this... have we agreed who was right or wrong in 'the troubles' yet?
  7. avatar Flatyre
    I thought we agreed it was you that was wrong, but it was a bit of a misunderstanding really, and if you replace the hobnobs we'll say no more about it.
  8. avatar Tele
    It's sad when you realise you only read a forum out of habit and not because there'll be anything interesting to read.

    What is there to discuss on this issue? Almost every politics/Northern Ireland thread that has been on FF's General forum in the last few years has simply rambled on for a few pages with no conclusion, barely any real discussion. It's basically a 'that's what I think... so there!'

    Well, whatever you like. Enjoy.
  9. avatar The enfant terrible
    EOGHAN QUIGG is getting into the whole pop star thing and if his bosses say he's doing a charity single then he's doing one. That's just the way it is. Frankly I'd boot all my beliefs, loyalties, friends and family in the face just to get on TV and stare inanely at the camera singing Imagine just so people like her from Hollyoaks and the wee doll from Emmerdale that smells of peanuts could say to themselves "Yeah! Just imagine!"
  10. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:081d54837b="comprachio"]
    have we agreed who was right or wrong in 'the troubles' yet?[/quote:081d54837b]

    Yes. It was a clear cut case between the Goodies and the Baddies.

    Other than that, I agree entirely with your original post.
  11. avatar clivemcl
    My first post!
    To be fair, I saw the banner as a backlash to the fact that EOGHAN QUIGG and Louie were getting death threats fror their part in the X-Factor fundraising single.

    The banner was maybe saying 'Eoghan supports, so why cant the rest of you?'

    Albeit it was clearly provocative.

    But you can't have an issue with what an army is doing currently because of what they have done in the past.

    You either support the war in Afghanistan or you dont, nothing else comes into the equation.

    If fundamental terrorists decided to start targeting Belfast, are the Catholics going to turn down the RIR's help?

    Different Soldiers, Different War, Different Time, Different Families grieving.

    Bit of respect wouldnt go a miss.
  12. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:600c960fa7="clivemcl"]You either support the war in Afghanistan or you dont, nothing else comes into the equation.[/quote:600c960fa7]

    Yes. You don't.

    [quote:600c960fa7="clivemcl"]If fundamental terrorists decided to start targeting Belfast, are the Catholics going to turn down the RIR's help?[/quote:600c960fa7]

    Help? A ring of steel around Belfast?


    However, conversely, I agree with what was said about the British Legion. I think fair enough, injured soldiers and that should obviously be looked after. I would have no problem buying a poppy, although I don't think I'd wear it.

    However, that's not the same as welcoming them home as heroes. They're not. They are human, however.
  13. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:a75701a9a8="comprachio"]bastards that are happy to kill not just soldiers[/quote:a75701a9a8]

    Bastards? Not at all.
    I agree, the ones that kill innocent civilians are a bunch of bastards, but the ones that fight and kill British and American soldiers have every right to do so.
    First of all because it's war and during a war soldiers get killed, so there is no need to whinge if British soldiers get killed. Secondly because the British and American soldiers are soldiers of an invasion army that are perpetrating the occupation of a sovereign state therefore Iraquis have the right to fight them (and if I am not wrong it is even stated in international laws). And saying they are bastards means that you believe they have no right to do so, yet if Russia invades Georgia we all get outraged but if British/American troops invade Iraq/Afghanistan it's alright, bit hypocritical, don't you think?
  14. avatar clivemcl
    Hold on, when did this become a debate on the war in Afghanastan?

    I thought the topic was regarding the sectarian tensions as a result of it.

    Please stop talking about it being a 'wrong' war, that is not what the protestors were protesting about, and it isnt anything to do with the provocative banner!
  15. avatar clivemcl
    But while we are at it... can anyone answer me a genuine question?

    If you were in the army and then the whole 'war on terror' started and you disagreed, could you leave?

    Like are you contracted? Can you just go home? or is that like desertion or something?
  16. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:762ce4adaf="clivemcl"]Please stop talking about it being a 'wrong' war, that is not what the protestors were protesting about[/quote:762ce4adaf]

    Actually, I'm afraid it was.

    [quote:762ce4adaf]If you were in the army and then the whole 'war on terror' started and you disagreed, could you leave[/quote:762ce4adaf]

    I believe you can still be a conscientious objector, although I could be wrong. If not though, I'd imagine you could easily engage in a protracted high-profile legal battle, and get away with it.
  17. avatar clivemcl
    [quote:f61c358f7c="Chi-Lite"][quote:f61c358f7c="clivemcl"]Please stop talking about it being a 'wrong' war, that is not what the protestors were protesting about[/quote:f61c358f7c]

    Actually, I'm afraid it was.[/quote:f61c358f7c]
    really? i thought it was the troubles? ok fair jars

    [quote:f61c358f7c]If you were in the army and then the whole 'war on terror' started and you disagreed, could you leave[/quote:f61c358f7c]

    I believe you can still be a conscientious objector, although I could be wrong. If not though, I'd imagine you could easily engage in a protracted high-profile legal battle, and get away with it.[/quote]

    and whilst the legal battle is ongoing, i imagine you get the crap kicked out of you by ur fellow troops...
  18. avatar RabbBennett
    [quote:0871e675dd="clivemcl"]But while we are at it... can anyone answer me a genuine question?

    If you were in the army and then the whole 'war on terror' started and you disagreed, could you leave?

    Like are you contracted? Can you just go home? or is that like desertion or something?[/quote:0871e675dd]

    An Army is based on killing it's what they do, so if anyone joined up, war is what they would be trained for and they would know that from the start. And no you cannot leave until your contract is up.
  19. avatar chris1984_99_99
    This is just like that other post from a few days ago about ur fellas name being offensive. A topic is started and within a few posts its turned into a cheap excuse to have a go at others. I could say a lot, but theres no point in getting into a 1 for 1, tit for tat.

    In reference to the original post, the kid should be allowed to sing whatever he wants without any fear. Who or what gives some scumbags the right to threaten his (or anyones) family because of what they do is beyond me. It is a free country is it not? I guess some people will never move away from the past.
  20. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:afd141ec7e]I don't support the war in Iraq/afghanistan in any way but the whole poor 'innocent civillians of Iraq' thing does my head in.[/i:afd141ec7e]

    Well, fucking lucky old you, imagine you actually lived in one of these occupied countries and your entire family were at a wedding, for example, and the ghouls of the American / British military decided to puree everyone and drop a thousand pound bomb on them.
    Whoops, sorry about that. Well, they're a bunch of swarthy savages anyway, they're not [i:afd141ec7e]really[/i:afd141ec7e] humans like us.
    The point is that the innocent civilians have no choice but to live there, because that's, erm, where they're from, like, but the soldiers have made a decision to be there with all the risks that entails.
    Ignorance and rank stupidity is no excuse.
  21. avatar PhatBob
    Nadine never wore one when Girls Aloud were on GMTV last week.
    It was the talk of the Nolan radio show!

    Just let them sing their wee songs FFS
  22. avatar The enfant terrible
    That's because Nadine's a wee fenian and used to date Marty McGuinness's son.

    I also didn't think it was wrong when Russia invaded Georgia. I did feel worried for the loved ones of the beautiful Katie Melua.

    I'd also like to say that the language that has developed with which to talk about terrorism post 9/11 is bollocks.
  23. avatar PhatBob
    the language that has developed with which to talk about terrorism post 9/11 is bollocks

    lucky thing most of the people on here - myself included - are fluent in that particular language, eh?
  24. avatar comprachio
    Jimmy Seagus, get off your fucking moral high horse would you. My point is that you're putting a black n white template over a situation which is very very complex. There are civilians in Iraq who oppose the intervention by the US/UK and those that are grateful of it. There are Iraqis who want peace and others who want to oppress and kill other Iraqis.

    Civilians have been killed because of US/UK troops, but civilians have also been SAVED because of them. The innocent civilians now have sight of a workable constitution and a vote. Some think they're worse off now, some think they're better off now.

    Nothing is clear cut about the situation in Iraq yet plenty of mouthpieces are happy to speak out in absolute terms about the war.... THAT is what does my head in.

    I am anti war, have always been but i'm not naively biased to the truths of the war.
  25. avatar remaderyan
    If i was that wee guy with the chance to make a fortune, have any woman he wants, make some decent music rather than coming back home here and working in tesco's i wouldnt give a toss about who killed who way back when.

    Talk about trying to poison a new generation. The guy was what, 2 or somethen when they had those ceasefires.

    I mean, a lot of us have recorded tracks and cream ourselves if we get them played on local music stations. Tell me you wouldnt perform in a song about anything if it got you a No.1 in the UK. I know I would.
  26. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    Well, if it's a straight choice between mealy-mouthed, axiomatic half-assed cobblers and the high moral horse then I'm staying on the nag.
    Some Iraqis welcomed the invasion and some didn't - No shit, huh?

    Wrong is wrong and when an illegal aggressive imperialist war is waged camouflaged by the cynical subterfuge of the whole WMD issue, then there is clearly an absolute here, certainly with regards to where the blame lies for the release of all this carnage.

    I won't be supporting the British class system and Establisment by wearing a poppy.
    Have a look at who'll be on the podium taking the salute - representatives of the established church, the military, politicians and most probably a member of the royal family, the guilty parties who have been sending their fodder to die at the front for centuries.
  27. avatar 10rapid
    Summary as I see it:

    Prods want to salute "our boys"
    Taigs don't want to cos of the troubles.
    X factor guy has to do a tune or cowell will chin him.
    Does tune.
    Prods go "See, not all taigs are bad!" (while secretly thinking "the ones that do prod things are less bad than the shinners, who ride the whore of Babylon")
    Prods hail honorary taigprod with banner.

    meanwhile, Girls Aloud bird doesn't have to kiss anyone's ass as she's already made it. Decides (as is her freedom and right) not to wear poppy.
    Prods cry "disgrace! people died at the somme and normandy for her freedom! (and for her to be dictated to by us prods for the sake of "our boys" when we actually mean "see, she's a filthy taig! She'll never change (ie become prodified!)"

    Result...honourable commemmoration of soldiers, some of whom died for good and just reason (ie liberating europe from dictators who would have us do things like wear symbols that we didn't like wearing, just cos they say so)becomes petty sectarian struggle of oneupmanship and narking on the streets and forums of "our wee country"/occupied six county statelet, which is going down the shitter anyhow, while our leaders refuse to speak to each other.

    For the unionists and republicans to think that either the republic of ireland or the UK would actually want this place is a naive joke.

    I say, hold a referendum on our future, but hold it in the south and in GB and then we'll see.
  28. avatar chris1984_99_99
    Jimmy Seagus... you really are living with ur head up ur arse, and have been for some time by the look of it! No doubt it pains u to know that every coin in your pocket has a picture of the queen on it. Tell you what, if you hate this country and everything British about it (being a part of the United Kingdom and all) then FUCK OFF.

    This is the last time i'll be posting on this topic as its clear to see there are users on here who will use anything as an excuse to talk the same pish thats been talked for decades. Fuck this, fuck that, because ur a brit, because ur a prod.... its pathetic, it shouldnt be allowed, but suprise suprise it is.
  29. avatar comprachio
    [quote:604f43dfb1]I won't be supporting the British class system and Establisment by wearing a poppy.
    Have a look at who'll be on the podium taking the salute - representatives of the established church, the military, politicians and most probably a member of the royal family, the guilty parties who have been sending their fodder to die at the front for centuries.[/quote:604f43dfb1]

    Aye, cos hierarchical structures of military are a exclusively a British thing....

    [/quote]
  30. avatar RabbBennett
    For the love of a higher being........STOP ALL THIS!!!!! :roll:
  31. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:f1a2be6e93]This is the last time i'll be posting on this topic as its clear to see there are users on here who will use anything as an excuse to talk the same pish thats been talked for decades. Fuck this, fuck that, because ur a brit, because ur a prod.... its pathetic, it shouldnt be allowed, but suprise suprise it is.[/i:f1a2be6e93]

    Well maybe you should fuck off and come back when you learn to read, and write for that matter ( 'ur', for fuck's sake, save that for texting your little playground pals, eh? ) because you've totally missed the point.
    It isn't about being anti-British, anti-prod or anything to do with sectarianism, which funnily enough you describe as the 'pish that's been talked for decades' yet you've just trotted out the classic 'pish that's been talked for decades' argument, I mean the queen's face on coins, and the truly classic and fuckwitted 'love my country or leave it' schtick. Where did you learn that kind of talk? You are one confused little boy.
    You'll be telling us next that 'them 'uns get everything' and 'we get nathin'.

    My objection to this poppy charade is purely class based with a healthy dose of anti-militarism thrown in which you might have realised if you hadn't been too busy imagining your Britishness had been offended.
  32. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:55bef6e6c9]Aye, cos hierarchical structures of military are a exclusively a British thing...[/i:55bef6e6c9]

    And that's your considered reply, eh?

    Are you seriously going to tell me that the British regimental system isn't a perfect reflection of the class structure of British society?
  33. avatar ryanego
    If it wasn't for all those people who died defending the liberal democratic freedom of these Islands in one way or another, you'd be protesting about Gareth Gates wearing a Swastika, and then you'd be shot.

    As is my understanding.
  34. avatar The enfant terrible
    That's like saying if I stop you getting a kicking, I'm entitled to give you a kicking.

    I didn't support the war in iraq or afghanistan, or a lot of the stuff the army did here during the troubles. That's why I wasn't at the march, but if other people want to go then suit themselves.

    And yeah if I was that wee dude I'd go for it but the people carrying the he supports us so should you banner were cocks.
  35. avatar T Entertainment
    "Are you seriously going to tell me that the British regimental system isn't a perfect reflection of the class structure of British society?"

    [i:d9cceace8f]Possibly[/i:d9cceace8f]...in the mid 19th century.

    So no, the British regimental system [i:d9cceace8f]isn't [/i:d9cceace8f]a perfect reflection of the class structure of British society.
  36. avatar RabbBennett
    could we wrap this up before the BIGGEST show in the country starts......... :smt102
  37. avatar The enfant terrible
    Members of fastfude trying to offset existential angst and their disappointment with adult life with a good oul pop(py) song, sometime yesterday:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZnic2aiCko
  38. avatar comprachio
    [quote:4dd3f59fdf]And that's your considered reply, eh?[/quote:4dd3f59fdf]

    Yes, cos arguing with you is pointless as I will undoubtedly never break your 'smash the system' spirit nor change your views (nor do I care to really) and now this is gonna descend into some sort of spelling and grammar rodeo.

    I agree with Chris tho... your points were more valid in the 19th century.
  39. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:bd8c8a24a6="remaderyan"]If i was that wee guy with the chance to make a fortune, have any woman he wants, make some decent music rather than coming back home here and working in tesco's i wouldnt give a toss about who killed who way back when.[/quote:bd8c8a24a6]
    Aye, can people in this country not leave that wee X Factor boy in peace to sell his soul to showbiz - the same way anyone who signs an entertainment contact has to.

    You'd think people would be happy that Northern Ireland is getting more normal representation on TV in the form of boys like him, but no, it's sour grapes in the form of 'death threats' saying he should know his place, and remember where he comes from.

    Well, I'm guessing he's only interested in his future, not some collective past he's got the chance to leave behind.
  40. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:3450cb2edc]Yes, cos arguing with you is pointless as I will undoubtedly never break your 'smash the system' spirit nor change your views (nor do I care to really) and now this is gonna descend into some sort of spelling and grammar rodeo.[/i:3450cb2edc]

    Dear oh dear, that's desperately poor.
    'Smash the system'?
    Hahaha.

    Anyway, you don't think that the higher echelons of the Army (like the civil service, leading industrialists, PLC board members, BBC governors, top clergy, etc ) tend to be public school educated, and the people who do most of the fighting and dying tend come from the working class?
  41. avatar Dirty Stevie Grizz
    Kid, with big hair, sings shít song for army charity. Another kick in the teeth for republicans.

    Also, did I miss the meeting at the weekend where the meaning of the word "Peacefully" was changed beyond all recognition?
  42. avatar unplugged
    i heard nolan rabbiting on about this this morning making little sense. an hour of garbage talk from people with no jobs to go to.

    that aside i think the whole argument is alot of bollocks. if the wee fella wants to have hair like alex kidd and wear his poppy and prance about like a drama queen then let him. Maybe like most - he doesnt care. there is more to worry about. like fucking affording food and heating.

    he'll be voted out soon, although it will be horrifyingly interesting when he arrives home to his wee home town. we wait with baited breath.....*sigh* good old NI
  43. avatar Tele
    Fuck da system for ruining the Utopia that was Afghanistan and the peace loving nation of Iraq. THE QUEEN DID IT ALL.
  44. avatar The enfant terrible
    No one is saying that Tele but it's not on invading a country and stealing their resources, then executing their leader. Why hasn't Blair or Bush been tried for war crimes yet? This whole fighting the enemy and liberating these countries nonsense is a sham (not in the Ballymena sense of the word).
  45. avatar Tele
    WOE IS ME. WHO WEEPS FOR SADDAM?

    DO THE BIRDS WEEP?

    NO, THEY DON'T.
  46. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    ONE 'O DEM BIRDS IS WEEPING
    'COS TELE STOLE HIS BRAIN
  47. avatar Gripper Magee
    [url]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc9BGSsU_ZU[/url]
  48. avatar november kyle
    I hope they make him sing 'The Sash' on next weeks show.
  49. avatar clivemcl
    Oh my, so many twists and turns, I think we have actually discussed about 100 different topics within this single topic.

    Basically, whether the war was right or not is irrelevent.

    Soldiers cannot leave the army just cos they dont like it.

    They are trapped, they go through tremendous fear, grieve for brothers in arms, have to kill or be killed, see horrible traumatic things. **Actually imagine this**

    These people are brothers, sons, fathers of real mothers fathers babies with real worries and real needs and real love. **Actually imagine this**

    And they are home, they are alive and they are back with those they love and are loved by. **Actually imagine this**

    Let them give thanks with a wee half hour parade for goodness sake!

    Our country would be such a nice place if 95% of us actually were educated and capable of empathy...

    Until then, I will stick with my wee group of considerate loving intelligent friends - such a sactuary from my horrible society.

    Oh by the way, It is my position that the above comment cannot be argued with, but for anyone who opts to take the plunge I will say this in advance:

    "whatever" :D
  50. avatar ShowYourBones
    I care not to read through all this babble, but thought I'd point out that these 'Dissident Republicans' who care to issue threats against a teenage boy are likely the same people who stand in the Dungiven GAA club whilst the god damn X Factor is shown on a large screen.
  51. avatar Tele
    Solution: just don't join the Army. **i move away from the keyboard to breathe in
  52. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    Aye but isn't he gorgeous with his wee face, those sultry, 'come to football training' eyes, the dimples on his cheeks that act as a parenthesis around a thousand beautiful words sung from his beautiful mouth and his ruffled hair that suggests a lack of effort but betrays a conscientious maintainence thereof.
  53. avatar chris1984_99_99
    .....No? :roll:
  54. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    YOU HAVE NO SOUL!!!!111
  55. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:a63b9dfbb2="The enfant terrible"]No one is saying that Tele but it's not on invading a country and stealing their resources, then executing their leader. Why hasn't Blair or Bush been tried for war crimes yet? This whole fighting the enemy and liberating these countries nonsense is a sham (not in the Ballymena sense of the word).[/quote:a63b9dfbb2]

    As they say, the winners write history (and omit what they want). The US saved everyones ass in WWII (which to be fair is to a certain extent a load of bollocks) so they basically write the rules and bend them when they need, simply because they are the US and we should be all grateful to them and do whatever they tell us to do. Besides the fact that the UN is as powerful as a drunken Ballymena man (just to keep the Ballymena theme there), the UN does what the fuck the US says or the US will simply ignore them.
    Very sad and sorry state of affairs, but not much we as individuals can do.

    And to quote good ole Noam Chomsky: "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged".
    Couldn't put it better myself.
  56. avatar Daithi jasper
    Yeah it is a load of bollocks as Russia blatantly won WWII by a wide margin. :)
  57. avatar VimFuego
    The real tragedy is that wee lads hair
  58. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    The real tragedy is that we'll never all be together under the one roof like this again.... sigh.....
  59. avatar Tele
    All this 'x won WWII' is bullshit anyway. No single country won that war. Jesus shit.
  60. avatar tinpot anto
    [img:afc007425a]http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/5278/1225302194/hanshoots.jpg[/img:afc007425a]
  61. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    How dare you try and derail this thread with an obscure post!
  62. avatar rentaghost
    yesbut Rachel has sacked Danni as mentor!

    :o
  63. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    Is Danni the fat man from mayo?
  64. avatar T Entertainment
    I heard she's bringing in Noam Chomsky, as he's right about basically everything.
  65. avatar rentaghost
    After last night, I would much prefer Gore Vidal to Chomsky. He would eat Simon Cowell for breakfast.
  66. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:4723ac11a9="Mickeycolensoparade"]Is Danni the fat man from mayo?[/quote:4723ac11a9]

    Maybe before all the plastic surgery...
  67. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:af117a9af2="T Entertainment"]I heard she's bringing in Noam Chomsky, as he's right about basically everything.[/quote:af117a9af2]

    And you failed to mention that he sounds like a white Barry White. Such a sexy voice!
  68. avatar theavenue
    This is so fucking dumb. These sad bastards wanting to kill a child and his family because he sung on a song. Fuck off.

    The fact that people still care about this bullshit angers me beyond belief and especially over something so inane. It makes me hate N. Ireland more and more and more.
  69. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    On the positive side, the fact that people are outraged at the fact that some loony threatened the wee lad is proof of how more and more people realize how the whole sectarian hate is a load of bullshit.
  70. avatar hoaxdrummer
    Just for the record - no one is "trapped" in the army. You can leave.

    Secondly, it's always been my belief rightly or wrongly that the wearing of the poppy is not a celebration of British aggression but merely an act of remembrance for those that died (primarily) during the first world war.

    [i:6331946ba9]"In Flanders fields the poppies blow
    Between the crosses, row on row"[/i:6331946ba9] - John McCrae, May 1915.

    It should also be noted that a visit to any war grave in The Somme will show that soldiers from [b:6331946ba9]all over[/b:6331946ba9]Ireland died in their thousands depicting a stupendous human sacrifice from soldiers of all backgrounds and religions.

    I think people are very quick to turn this into a Northern Ireland issue - which I personally think is a bit silly.
  71. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:340cf16a20="hoaxdrummer"]Just for the record - no one is "trapped" in the army. You can leave.[/quote:340cf16a20]

    Actually, i don't think you can, not until your service is up. But i'm pretty sure you can be a conscientious objector and refuse to take part in any offensive action. I could be wrong about that, but i'm fairly certain you can't just leave the army..you sign up for a certain time-period, and if you leave before that, it's a criminal offence. you can be shot.

    [quote:340cf16a20="hoaxdrummer"]Secondly, it's always been my belief rightly or wrongly that the wearing of the poppy is not a celebration of British aggression but merely an act of remembrance for those that died (primarily) during the first world war.[/quote:340cf16a20]

    As Anto might say, it's a bit of both. The symbol of the poppy originated after WW1, but it refers to those who were injured or died for the British cause in ANY conflict, including those that are still ongoing. So, really, it DOES also symbolise support for those soldiers currently in Afghanistan and Iraq. Many people do not wish to support that, myself included.

    [quote:340cf16a20="hoaxdrummer"]soldiers from [b:340cf16a20]all over[/b:340cf16a20]Ireland died in their thousands[/quote:340cf16a20]

    Yes, but "in the cause of Britain". It doesn't matter where they came from, surely, it's who you're fighting for. And while fighting against fascism is probably fair enough, no matter what uniform you wear, fighting [i:340cf16a20]for Britain[/i:340cf16a20] in the first world war is perhaps less noble, given the utter futility of what was, by any interpretation, an imperial war. And many people would see it as even less noble to be a part of an occupying force in small countries thousands of miles away.


    [quote:340cf16a20="hoaxdrummer"]I think people are very quick to turn this into a Northern Ireland issue - which I personally think is a bit silly.[/quote:340cf16a20]


    Oh, I don't know. The poppy does also sumbolise the sacrifice of those fighting for Britain in Ireland over the past lot of decades...you know, including those who were involved in collusion, and massacres and all sorts. And also including those who are no doubt involved in precisely the same things now, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The point i'm making is that the poppy, and remembrance day itself, is not just about the Somme (in which millions were sent to their deaths by Britain for very little purpose), it is also about support for all British army personell involved in all conflicts, including Ireland, Afghanistan and Iraq, where their record is far from unblemished.
  72. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:608f779ef5="Chi-Lite"] And while fighting against fascism is probably fair enough, no matter what uniform you wear, fighting [i:608f779ef5]for Britain[/i:608f779ef5] in the first world war is perhaps less noble, given the utter futility of what was, by any interpretation, an imperial war. [/quote:608f779ef5]

    You can't be seriously suggesting that [i:608f779ef5]anyone[/i:608f779ef5] regards the first world war as anything other than futile.
  73. avatar Chi-Lite
    did you conclude that from the bit where i said "given the utter futility..."?

    Header :-D
  74. avatar trepanner
    Anyone conscripted in 1916 Britain should have immediately looked up the reasons for the war on Wikipedia, then having read these undoubtedly spurious motives and having taken this in, they should have conscientously objected and headed off to be court martialled and shot, with no further ado.
  75. avatar chris1984_99_99
    Chi-Lite are you for real?... I know I said I wouldnt be posting on this again, but I just had to. There was me thinking this thread has finally been put to rest.

    [quote:23c1bac33e]you sign up for a certain time-period, and if you leave before that, it's a criminal offence. you can be shot. [/quote:23c1bac33e]

    That kinda set up your entire post didnt it? At seeing that I really should have stopped, but didnt, and regretted it!

    If anyone is interested in facts rather than rambling on, you can enlist in the forces for anything from 1 or 2 years up to 22 years. You can ask for extensions or ask to leave early. If someone wants to leave, they have to explain why (it can be for a number of reasons) they usually get out but maybe not right away. Look at it from a business point of view, they invest tens of thousands in your training and want to get their money out of you by whats called a return of service.

    Your right in saying the Poppys are mainly for remembering those who died in WWI, but also for WWII and other conflicts thereafter and ongoing. Its a shame that your knocking it down so readily considering people died from all communities and countrys. Dont forget in WWI there wasnt even a Northern Ireland, so you had people VOLUNTEERING from all of Ireland. There was never conscription in Ireland in either wars. Obviously people felt it important to fight back then. To say they faught and died for Britain is an offence to them. They knew the dangers out there and probably did it for their families.

    I totally agree that WWI was a very Imperialist and old fashioned war, but look at the time it happened. It was a time of change from mass collumns of troops fighting troops like the napoleonic wars to a time of machine guns and tanks. Tatics have never advanced as quickly as technolody. Its been like that throughout history.

    Also think of the very name WORLD WAR, you cant really single out Britain considering the whole world was involved (save a few neutral countries like Ireland in WWII)

    Today we're lucky we dont have any threats like that, but thats only because people gave their lives to make it this way. Whether you want to show your respect for that is totally up to you, its a free country, but I suggest you think before posting and get your facts right 1st.
  76. avatar sazchops
    [quote:f21809a622]merely an act of remembrance for those that died (primarily) during the first world war.[/quote:f21809a622]

    that's why i wear it. it's not in support for anyone fighting in iraq or afghanistan (although i do have support for them as know a few people there at the minute and i have full support for them and hope they get back ok), but for me, a poppy is a symbol of rememberance.

    as for the idiots threatening that wee xfactor boy, it's ridiculous - leave him alone, he can do what he likes! what is ridiculous though is the fact he's still in the finals - he's crap! :roll:
  77. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    he's not crap he's gorgeous.
  78. avatar Chi-Lite
    Chris, I'm not sure I've grasped your umbrage with what I wrote, however, from your previous posts I have my suspicions

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]If anyone is interested in facts rather than rambling on, you can enlist in the forces for anything from 1 or 2 years up to 22 years. You can ask for extensions or ask to leave early.[/quote:cc1537877f]

    So, like I said, you can't just leave then. you can request leave for certain reasons, much like the conscientious objector point i was making then, eh?

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]Your right in saying the Poppys are mainly for remembering those who died in WWI, but also for WWII and other conflicts thereafter and ongoing. Its a shame that your knocking it down so readily considering people died from all communities and countrys.[/quote:cc1537877f]

    What has that got to do with anything? Aren't we talking about poppies, a symbol of the British Army? So the people we're talking about are those who died for the British army, yeah?

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]Dont forget in WWI there wasnt even a Northern Ireland, so you had people VOLUNTEERING from all of Ireland.[/quote:cc1537877f]

    Yes. to join the [i:cc1537877f]British Army[/i:cc1537877f]. Isn't that what we're talking about?

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]To say they faught and died for Britain is an offence to them. They knew the dangers out there and probably did it for their families.[/quote:cc1537877f]

    In case the Kaiser expanded his empire into their living rooms, you mean? You agree that the first world war was an imperial venture, therefore it's purpose was to protect the [i:cc1537877f]British Empire[/i:cc1537877f]. Haven't you agreed that. Oh wait, here it is;

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]I totally agree that WWI was a very Imperialist war[/quote:cc1537877f]


    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]It was a time of change from mass collumns of troops fighting troops like the napoleonic wars to a time of machine guns and tanks. Tatics have never advanced as quickly as technolody. Its been like that throughout history.[/quote:cc1537877f]

    what have tactics got to do with anything? Having agreed it was an imperialist war, it follows that those who fought in it on the British side were fighting for the British empire. Innit.

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]Also think of the very name WORLD WAR, you cant really single out Britain considering the whole world was involved[/quote:cc1537877f]

    Yes, but aren't we talking about wearing poppies?

    [quote:cc1537877f="chris1984_99_99"]Today we're lucky we dont have any threats like that[/quote:cc1537877f]

    What, threats to the British Empire? That's because there's very little of it left.

    Again, I really don't get the point you're trying to make. You agree that poppies symbolise rememberance for all British Army casualties and fatalities, not just those from WW1, which is the point i was making. you also agree that WW1 was an imperialist war, which is the other point I was making.

    So what is your point, and what are you so wound up about?

    [quote:cc1537877f]it's not in support for anyone fighting in iraq or afghanistan [/quote:cc1537877f]

    It is though.
  79. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Chi is absolutely spot on.

    If they volunteered to fight they had to be pro-British because they were enlisting in the British Army. And if they are offended at being told they fought for Britain, sorry for them, but they obviously are idiots.

    And as for the leave thing, realistically you can't leave unless you have aggravating circumstances such as serious family issues (think the old rule of being able to leave the army if you are the sole remaining male in the family still applies) or severe health issues.
    To think someone can leave the army because you don't agree is just simply idiotic, the officer in charge and your comrades will probably laugh in your face if you are a soldier requesting discharge because you don't agree with the war you are fighting.
  80. avatar T Entertainment
    There is of course another important reason why the poppy/ Remembrance is an extremely sensitive subject in Northern Ireland. And that is the IRA murdering 11 civilians in Enniskillen at the cenotaph (and trying to wipe out a nearby Boy's Brigade parade the same day). That is the single event which did most to polarise the whole issue.
    I suppose it's some measure of the distance we've come that these days we're only talking about some dysfunctional sectarian half-wits posting threats from their keyboards which are almost certainly never going to be acted upon. Not so long ago, association with the British Legion or remembrance in general was enough to actually be killed.
  81. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:faf73500a1="POSITIVExYOUTH"]Chi is absolutely spot on.

    If they volunteered to fight they had to be pro-British because they were enlisting in the British Army. And if they are offended at being told they fought for Britain, sorry for them, but they obviously are idiots.

    And as for the leave thing, realistically you can't leave unless you have aggravating circumstances such as serious family issues (think the old rule of being able to leave the army if you are the sole remaining male in the family still applies) or severe health issues.
    To think someone can leave the army because you don't agree is just simply idiotic, the officer in charge and your comrades will probably laugh in your face if you are a soldier requesting discharge because you don't agree with the war you are fighting.[/quote:faf73500a1]

    Didn't they put Sassoon in a mental hospital for it?
  82. avatar T Entertainment
    Oh and of course you can leave today's army if you don't want to be in it. It's not a quick or particularly easy process because you are given time to consider your options but they don't charge or shoot you if you decide you definitely want out. Officers aren't too keen on having soldiers with them in hostile areas who absolutely don't want to be there and have lost all motivation. Tends to result in people getting killed. It's a volunteer army, ffs.

    "Didn't they put Sassoon in a mental hospital for it?"

    Yes. Eighty fucking years ago at a time of mass conscription!
  83. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Despite it happening in 1917 not much has changed today, if you refuse to take part in action because you disagree with the action or disagree generally with the war you can be courtmartialled and be discharged dishonourably if you are lucky or get locked up if you are unlucky.

    Sassoon was a volounteer (as everyone that joined the army before or just at the start of WWI) yet he got locked up in a mental institution to keep him quiet because he disagreed with the army and the war.
    So even if you are a volounteer, once you are in they own you. Contrary to popular belief you cannot leave the army when you want because you sign a legally binding contract that says you will stay on for that period. If you breach the contract you will be punished.
  84. avatar T Entertainment
    "if you refuse to take part in action because you disagree with the action or disagree generally with the war you can be courtmartialled"

    Also, the numbers of people who want out are tiny, because it's a highly motivated, volunteer army.

    I don't think there's a single army in the world which gives its soldiers carte blanche on what theaters to operate in, and the British Army is no exception on that.


    Things have changed [i:4f344f2ee5]enormously[/i:4f344f2ee5] since 1917 (when shellshock wasn't even accepted as a pschyiatric illness, what we would now call post traumatic stress disorder), to claim otherwise is in contradiction of all the evidence. Just one example: Hundreds of people where shot for desertion in that war. That hasn't happened in several decades. I'd call that a fairly fundamental change.
  85. avatar trepanner
    [quote:08f71ed2ff="POSITIVExYOUTH"]Despite it happening in 1917 not much has changed today,[/quote:08f71ed2ff]

    Ever heard of Field Punishment Number One?
  86. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    The fact that the number of people that want to leave are tiny still doesn't change the essence of the argument: agree or disagree, there is no way you will leave the army.

    And naturally in 2008 shellshock is recognized as a psychiatric illess and you don't get shot for dissertion. You may not be punished in the same way, but the crime itself hasn't changed at all.
    If you disert for whatever reason you won't be shot now but you will still be punished. If you refuse to take part in an action you wil not be shot but you still will be punishmed. So despite the punishment has changed since 1917, the attitude towards the 'crimes' is exactly the same as back then and you will be punished for non-compliance to orders or disertion just as back then.

    So no, fundamentally not much has changed since 1917.
  87. avatar trepanner
    Apart from the whole "Not Being Crucified And Then Shot At" part, which sounds like a significant motivator to me.

    How well informed about world events was the average man on the ground in WWI to make these choices, do you think?
  88. avatar Chi-Lite
    Where is this going? No one is disputing the integrity of early 20th century man.

    We're just saying, poppies aren't just a nice wreath to remember your dead uncle, they are explicit symbols of "British Sacrifice" made in the cause of the British Army, for whatever cause that happened to be at the time. thus, the amount of taigs in the army during WW1, whether or not people can leave the army without being shot, and how informed the average soldier is, is irrelevant.

    Weren't we talking about the symbolism of poppies, and of remembrance in general? Some tangents here hey
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  89. avatar T Entertainment
    So despite things having fundamentally changed enormously, fundamentally things have not much changed. I see.

    You also talk as if the British army was some sort of evil exception in expecting its soldiers to do as they are ordered. It really isn't. It's par for the course.

    "agree or disagree, there is no way you will leave the army."

    Rubbish. It might cost you financially and it might not happen overnight, as with any broken contract of work, but that's just not true.
  90. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Well, as i said, the punishment has changed, no big deal, but the attitudes are the same. That is where crucially the problem is.

    Naturally then the context is different, back then people were perhaps excused because they had not enough knowledge for how things go and it was hardh they got punished that way. But now people have much more information, they can actually have an idea of what is going on which is why the soldiers that willingly enlist in the army and then want to get out or complain about the war have no excuse and no attenuating circumstances. If they weren't smart enough to inform themselves then they probably have no right to complain and be crybabys because they want out.
  91. avatar The Grace Jones
    This kind of thing was a simpler in the good old days when Marty could have just shouted "FUCK THE BRITS" without having to dance round the whole thing.

    I can see it eating him up inside, and as I harbour a deep and wholly unnatural love for him, it hurts me to watch.
  92. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:52902ee9ae="T Entertainment"]

    "Didn't they put Sassoon in a mental hospital for it?"

    Yes. Eighty fucking years ago at a time of mass conscription![/quote:52902ee9ae]

    I never said they did it yesterday, or that it still went on. If we are buying poppies to remember the dead of WW1 then it's those guys that chucked him in there, all for being a conscientious objector.
  93. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:ef6a5239c5="T Entertainment"]So despite things having fundamentally changed enormously, fundamentally things have not much changed. I see.
    [/quote:ef6a5239c5]

    How have things changed enormously? Just because people don't get shot but get prison sentences for the same crime, based on the same arguments and fundamentally following the same Military Code things have changed drastically?
    Bullshit. Punishments always change, people don't get hanged anymore but the we all would agree that the concept of people getting punished for a determined crime is substantially the same. Same thing for the army, the punishment has adapted with the times, but the basis for the punishment is exactly the same as 1917. That is hardly a fundamental change.

    [quote:ef6a5239c5="T Entertainment"]
    You also talk as if the British army was some sort of evil exception in expecting its soldiers to do as they are ordered. It really isn't. It's par for the course.[/quote:ef6a5239c5]

    It is, just as every other army in the world. You do as you are told or you get punished. It's the fundamental of how discipline works in armies.

    [quote:ef6a5239c5="T Entertainment"]
    "agree or disagree, there is no way you will leave the army."

    Rubbish. It might cost you financially and it might not happen overnight, as with any broken contract of work, but that's just not true.[/quote:ef6a5239c5]

    Rubbish? Quote me more than 5 cases since the start of the war in Afghanistan or Iraq in which a British soldier was granted early leave because they didn't agree with the war.
    My bet is that you will find no case at all. Because the army WIlL NOT grant early leave to anyone that disagrees with the war.
    Just look at that helicopter pilot, he disagreed with the war and a precise action and refused to take part in military operations. Did he get discharged? No, he got courtmartialled.
  94. avatar The Grace Jones
    That's false logic, unless you can quote five cases in which British soldiers were denied early leave on the same grounds.

    There's some info here - http://www.atease.org.uk/info_L1_06.htm on British army personnel's legal right to object to war, including the right to object to involvement in a specific war.

    I would warn in advance that this document contains actual facts as opposed to some sort of nonce-sense I've just ass-vomited onto the keyboard, and as such may not be to everyone's tastes.
  95. avatar nonlogic liam
    I'm sorry but this Northern crap (which I never ever really understood) is way over my head. All I can say is: spare a thought for all those poor Southern families that could not publicly mourn their dead sons, as to do so would have obviously resulted in some kind of nastiness. Who remembers them? What cheap plastic flower represents their sacrifice? Does it matter? Do you think those thugs down town realised that the poppies they were wearing were supposed to not only represent white British soldiers but African soldiers, Indian soldiers, Irish soldiers. I very much doubt it, and I'm sure that the majority of men who died in the first world war would find it disgusting that people are using their memory in order to justify hatred...
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  96. avatar The Grace Jones
    Well, if I deduce correctly, Marty says NEIN, it matters not ein single fuck. The poor British were conscripted and therefore can't be blamed but instead deserve our sympathy, whereas the Irish weren't and so were basically just bloodthirsty maniacs, and worse, ignorant of the intricacies of European politics, who are therefore to be utterly condemned and so on. I [i:711207bc1b]think[/i:711207bc1b] that's what he's saying, at least. Either that, or he's trying to prove the existence of God in an even more long-winded way than usual. I'm never sure.
  97. avatar remaderyan
    Just to throw something else in here...

    The fact that Sassoon wasnt shot was because he was an Officer, not a regualar soldier, a product of a wealthy middle class background where he lived from a private income while playing cricket, horse riding and general lazyness. Not down the pit since he was eight.

    A fact comes to mind that not one single british officer was shot for cowardice during WW1, he was re-assigned or in Sassoon's case sent to a mental hospital.

    But the fact remains that a lot of the Irish men were fighting for Ireland not for England. (wasnt Ireland part of britain back then?) The promise of home rule, didnt that encourage a lot of men to volunteer? That was hardly fighting 'for' england, more 'with' england.
    I once read a conspiracy that people from the entire Island were wasted away in pointless battles that destroyed a generation to prevent an even bigger civil war in Ireland.... theres one to discuss :)


    Or perhaps they were more enlightened than people today and saw outside the context of their centuries old hatred of England or their pathetic squabbles in Ireland itself? Hence Prods and Catholics fighting side beside in some battles for a 'greater' cause?

    I dont think it really matters, i think what matters more is that we dont get ourselves killed for something so stupid as an imperialistic ideal. Isnt that the lesson we need to take away from it all?

    I'm no fan of the class system, imperialism or any of that but, i do have a lot of respect for the people who died. They had a lot more Balls than I ever will.
  98. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:b412378edf]Today we're lucky we dont have any threats like that, but thats only because people gave their lives to make it this way.[/i:b412378edf]

    I love this line of thinking, like those poor fucks who drowned in their own serf blood for King and Country had some sort of altruistic eye to the future, when really they were just products of their time who were pressurised to believe all that patriotic shite right up until they were shredded by shards of hot shrapnel.

    Do we never fucking learn?
    I see the Americans have annihilated another family attending a wedding in Afghanistan today, too.

    The savage soldier sticks his head in sand and then complains.
  99. avatar T Entertainment
    Jesus, the goalposts are moving so rapidly now they're off the pitch and disappearing over the horizon.
    This is what an employment lawyer I know has to say on the subject:

    "you have to give 6 months notice whatever the reason(it can be less, if there are extenuating personal circumstances). The penalty is the same as for many jobs - less pension. So the best times to leave are at three year intervals - 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 then 20, then 22. If you hit the milestones your pension is worth more. Same with the police, fire brigade, civil service.

    you can be put in an army jail if you are suspected of going absent without leave - but that's a very different thing. It isn't like not turning up for a shift at tesco. The lives of your colleagues can be at stake. You will then be compulsorily discharged if it is proven."

    That's the facts of the matter. If you still think things haven't changed 'much' since WW1, then I can only assume you don't want to accept they have done so, in the face of the actual evidence, so you can paint the army as the totalitarian militia it clearly isn't.

    But I'm guessing that - ignoring any particular circumstance like Afghanistan or Iraq - that you disagree with the UK having an army per se. Hmmm?


    "The savage soldier sticks his head in sand and then complains."


    Which 'savage' soldiers are these who are complaining, btw?

    And carve it up however you will, do you dispute that whatever the motivation of the soldiers on the ground, or their understanding of the bigger picture, or the faults of the countries who waged it, that the war against Nazi Germany was one which had to be won for the benefit of everyone?
  100. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:307029291e]If you still think things haven't changed 'much' since WW1, then I can only assume you don't want to accept they have done so, in the face of the actual evidence, so you can paint the army as the totalitarian militia it clearly isn't.[/i:307029291e]

    Which actual evidence is this?

    It's, y'know,an army.By it's very nature it's totalitarian. You won't find the SWP section of the British Army refusing to go oppress Iraqis, for example, on grounds of class solidarity, will you?
    It's a hierarchical institution, only in this hierarchical institution you agree to take orders to kill from your superiors, no? It can't really function any other way.

    [i:307029291e] ...that the war against Nazi Germany was one which had to be won for the benefit of everyone?[/i:307029291e]

    Indeed, though there were an absolutely unique set of circumstances leading to Part II of World War I such as the victorious powers' vindictiveness towards Germany through the Versailles Treaty.

    [i:307029291e]But I'm guessing that - ignoring any particular circumstance like Afghanistan or Iraq - that you disagree with the UK having an army per se. Hmmm? [/i:307029291e]

    Not just the UK.

    [i:307029291e]Which 'savage' soldiers are these who are complaining, btw?[/i:307029291e]

    Erm, the ones we're discussing who want to leave?
  101. avatar chris1984_99_99
    Ah you have to laugh at some of the replies in here... some are just outright daft, no other way to put it.

    T Entertainment, your the only guy speaking any sense in here, im glad to see it, but I get the feeling its a lost battle.

    I cant believe how some people are insisting that nothing has changed since WW1. That seriously is nothing short of retarted. You dont join any armed force knowing that if the shit hits the fan, your going to object. If you want to wear the uniform, hold a weapon, you have to be prepared to do your duty. Thats why its such a serious thing for those who back out when theyre needed most. As its been said if someone backs out then they put other lives at risk, aswell as the money wasted in their training.

    Heres a question for you know it all's. Would you rather we didnt have poppies and spoke German instead?

    Edit:
    Bare in mind this is what was going on during the war, this is why the Britain along with the rest of the free world faught.
    [img:91872eafe1]http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/holocaust_remembrance_1.jpg[/img:91872eafe1]
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  102. avatar artofdarkness
    The people I know that joined the army did so because they did really badly with their education, so being a quantity surveyor or research scientist wasn't an option, but they still wanted a proper career that offered a guaranteed wage - enough to raise a family on - and a good pension at the end of it (or money for their family if the worst should happen to them).

    So when the poppy appeal comes round, I give to it, from the thought that it's ordinary men (and women these days) doing the best they can in the job they chose.

    When someone's missing a leg, socialist lectures on class structure aren't going to help them, but a bit of donated money might - donated from the simple recognition that people are imperfect and make muddled choices with their lives, and get involved in situations we don't agree with, but still deserving of help when they need it, and when it doesn't cost us much to give it.
  103. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:65b9c0b70d]Would you rather we didnt have poppies and spoke German instead?[/i:65b9c0b70d]

    Hahaha.

    Just when you thought it was impossible to top the 'Queen's face on the money / love my country or leave it' comedy gold.

    [i:65b9c0b70d]The people I know that joined the army did so because they did really badly with their education, so being a quantity surveyor or research scientist wasn't an option, but they still wanted a proper career that offered a guaranteed wage - enough to raise a family on - and a good pension at the end of it (or money for their family if the worst should happen to them).[/i:65b9c0b70d]

    Superb, so they're willing to kill for economic reasons.
  104. avatar chris1984_99_99
    Glad you found it funny, pity you didnt answer the question.
  105. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    There's no question to answer.

    You're clearly talking though a cliche-generator.


    Do try and have a thought of your own, thinking for yourself is so important, not just repeating verbatim from The Sun.
  106. avatar chris1984_99_99
    lol....wtf?

    Ok so correct me if im wrong (and im sure that wont take long) A few of you are more than happy to bitch about the "British Army" and all the evils its done in the past, which im [i:351a1d5d3f]sure[/i:351a1d5d3f] has nothing to do with the troubles, yet you cant really give an answer as to whether you would rather the British armed forces faught alongside other nations against the Axis. Perhaps I was too vague in asking would you prefer poppies or to speak German.

    Honestly a few of you seem to be really bitter and using this as an excuse to have a go at anything British. Get over it.
  107. avatar artofdarkness
    I do agree with a lot of the points made by people on this thread, but when I weigh up 'abstract talk' alongside 'actually doing a small thing to make a difference to someone else's life', I'd rather do a practical thing that helps someone else today.
  108. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    OK, let's try this one last time, then I really have to go.

    I've stated that I'm anti-military based on opposition to the exploitation of the working class whom the establishment have used for centuries to fight their imperialist wars and subdue captured territories, so not exclusively anti-British at all.
    You seem to be convinced that the British Army is always in the right. You also seem irrational and insecure enough to believe that anyone who dares to question their actions and motives must be some kind of traitor who should leave the country or even more laughably go and learn German.Then you post a picture of a soldier about to shoot a woman holding a child, so what? Has a British soldier never killed a woman or a child? We can spend all day here posting horror photographs because guess what?? That's right, that's what war is and that's what soldiers do, even British soldiers.
  109. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/3386273/US-warplanes-bomb-wedding-party-Afghans-claim.html[/URL]

    [i:e64823983c]but when I weigh up 'abstract talk' alongside 'actually doing a small thing to make a difference to someone else's life', I'd rather do a practical thing that helps someone else today.[/i:e64823983c]

    The American military doing a small thing to make a difference to someone's life yesterday.
  110. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    [quote:3aa81e2b02="Somebody"][i:3aa81e2b02]Would you rather we didnt have poppies and spoke German instead?[/i:3aa81e2b02][/quote:3aa81e2b02]

    All things being equal, the choice would more likely be having no poppies and speaking Russian, but it is, in essence, a false dichotomy.
  111. avatar Chi-Lite
    It's a fucking ridiculous dichotomy, almost as bad as "if you don't like this country (Ireland) being British, you should leave it, and perhaps go to Ireland, where all the irish are.



    For the record, I sort of agree with all points, although the goalposts really are changing. i made the point about conscientious objectors because I was pretty sure there was some mechanism whereby you didn't have to fight in a war you didn't believe i.

    All that's irrelevant, the main (I think only) point I was trying to make was that buying a poppy means more than remembering your dead granda. It is a symbol of support for BRITISH troops, including those who fought in WW1, apointless imperial war, those who served n Ireland, where a number ofmassacres where carried out, and those who serve now in Iraq and afghanistan, where massacres are still being carried out.

    So that's why I wouldn't wear one. As for the rest of this argument, I haven't a clue where it's going. But let's just say that WW1 wasn't brave men fighting against fascism, it was brave men being duped into fighting an imperial war. Many irish were duped into it with the promise of HomeRule, and many British were duped into it with the threat of invasion by the Germans which was extremely unlikely, and not even on the cards.
  112. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    Don't be confusing him, now.
    He probably thinks a false dichotomy is a prosthetic limb.

    For someone who claims to be so pissed off at the 'oul tiresome sectarian arguments, he sure trots out a lot of the cliched cobblers associated with sectarianism.
  113. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Here's the thing, though. In a right and proper world (whatever the hell one of them would be), the notion that there'd have to be a charity collection to support war veterans would be completely fucking odious. Surely it should be the job of the state that sent the poor fuckers to war to support them and their families in their post-war lives. Before even getting into the rights and wrongs of wearing the poppy or otherwise, surely the notion that such a thing is necessary or right in the first place might need to be addressed?
  114. avatar trepanner
    That is a bloody good point though.
  115. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:d922bc00e1]Here's the thing, though. In a right and proper world (whatever the hell one of them would be), the notion that there'd have to be a charity collection to support war veterans would be completely fucking odious. Surely it should be the job of the state that sent the poor fuckers to war to support them and their families in their post-war lives. Before even getting into the rights and wrongs of wearing the poppy or otherwise, surely the notion that such a thing is necessary or right in the first place might need to be addressed?[/i:d922bc00e1]

    Well, quite, and coupled with the fact that the government don't even supply their mercenaries with the proper protective equipment, it would actually lead you to believe that they don't really give a fuck.
  116. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:af4d929c5f="chris1984_99_99"]

    Honestly a few of you seem to be really bitter and using this as an excuse to have a go at anything British. Get over it.[/quote:af4d929c5f]

    Like pork pies.

    What the [i:af4d929c5f]fuck[/i:af4d929c5f] are they all about?
  117. avatar The enfant terrible
    Prince Charles should never be king. His love for Camila Parker Bowles is wrong. When the current queen dies William should ascend to the throne.
  118. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:662277a8bf="The enfant terrible"]Prince Charles should never be king. His love for Camila Parker Bowles is wrong. When the current queen dies William should ascend to the throne.[/quote:662277a8bf]

    For some reason I had a dream the other night where Prince Charles died before the Queen, and she was laughing at the hilarity of it all.
  119. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    [quote:422545945c="Chi-Lite"]Many irish were duped into it with the promise of HomeRule, and many British were duped into it with the threat of invasion by the Germans which was extremely unlikely, and not even on the cards.[/quote:422545945c]

    Ach get off their backs. They use that idiotic and retarded argument because they have no better argument to explain why they support the actions of the British Army regardless of what they do or what is going on.

    And for the record, the people that say that some of us are having a dig at the army because it's a quick way to have a dig at everything British seriously need to grow up. It's not being anti-British, it's about being anti-war.
  120. avatar clss_act_00
    Wise up, wearing a poppy symbolises remembrance for those who died in battle for the rest of us. They were mostly British, but many were Irish. It's a mark of respect, nothing more or less. Not wearing one for some half-wit political reason is a pile of balls and anyone with a reasonable amount of knowledge of the whole thing knows as much. The rest of those who won't wear one are ignorant.

    I wear one because it's a mark of respect to those who died, including extended family members. Most of those objecting probably had extended family of some sort who fought in the same wars. It's not a political agenda and I don't give a crap wether people think it's linked to being protestant/loyalist/unionist/british/whatever other crap people would have you believe. Get a grip on reality and the things that actually matter, it's not about any war being right or wrong, simply respect for those who lost lives for others

    EDIT for spelling mistake
  121. avatar Chi-Lite
    You obviously haven't read the rest of this thread.

    Wear a white ribbon to respect the dead, why should it be a poppy?
    Unless you've some sort of political agenda...but surely not. :lol:

    Also; [quote:1fc53d5726]those who died in battle for the rest of us[/quote:1fc53d5726] is a political statement, not a statement of fact.

    Those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly haven't died for [i:1fc53d5726]me[/i:1fc53d5726]...sure didn't I ask them not to go in the first place.
  122. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    I second that.
    It's absolutely retarded coming up with that overused and meaningless sentence "they died for you". Bullshit! They didn't die for me.

    And it's even more outrageous to say that people HAVE to wear a poppy if they don't want to be considered ignorant and or don't want to have a finger pointed at them for their "half-wit political reasons".
    I have a knowledge of how things are and consider myself to have quite well argumented political reasonings and views, but guess what? I don't wear a poppy, never have wore one and never will.

    Ok, it may be considered a symbol of remembrance for those dead, so what? I can very well choose not to wear one out of my anti-war sentiments and my conviction that WWI, Afghanistan and Iraq are imperialist wars. And to whoever may decide to say I lack respect if I don't wear one or make such statements I will laugh in their face; it's a lack of respect on my side not wearing a poppy yet it's not a problem if those same soldiers killed other people?
  123. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:8ac65c9c0e="Jimmy Seagus"]The American military doing a small thing to make a difference to someone's life yesterday.[/quote:8ac65c9c0e]
    Strangely enough, directing the actions of the American military isn't within my ability, nor can I go back in time to rearrange world events, or dictate other people's life circumstances to ensure that the people injured in war are 100% blameless according to my own personal moral code in 2008.

    So only blameless people working in morally perfect circumstances are worthy of us flinging them a few quid once they get injured? I don't believe in withholding help from other human beings on the grounds that I don't agree with the direction history took (and is taking).

    If I can help human beings when they need help with a really small gesture, then I'll do it, and play a small part for the positive.
  124. avatar The Grace Jones
    [quote:dc6f457c44="Chi-Lite"]certainly haven't died for [i:dc6f457c44]me[/i:dc6f457c44]...[/quote:dc6f457c44]

    Unlike Jesus. Whom, as you must know by now, sheds a little tear every time you and the keyboard sin together.
  125. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:7cc8e69bff]So only blameless people working in morally perfect circumstances are worthy of us flinging them a few quid once they get injured? I don't believe in withholding help from other human beings on the grounds that I don't agree with the direction history took (and is taking)[/i:7cc8e69bff]

    Presumably then by that logic you'd be happy to donate to a Waffen SS or Khmer Rouge veterans fund? It could be argued that they're human beings caught up in circumstances of history too, no?

    Come on, all of us are making moral judgements all the time here, right or wrong we're all doing it.

    And for the record some of my family and good friends wear poppies and I'm happy to say that I'm perfectly free to express my opinion to them without causing any ill-feeling or being invited to leave the country / being told to go and learn German.
    It was an insane mix of militarism, patriotism and deference to authority that slaughtered these people and in my opinion fucking marching about and saluting the modern day representatives of the establishment would be laughable were it not so sad.
    Nothing changes, does it?
  126. avatar Redfin
    [quote:64eeaa6c74]I second that.
    It's absolutely retarded coming up with that overused and meaningless sentence "they died for you". Bullshit! They didn't die for me.

    [/quote:64eeaa6c74]

    This is the most absurd comment i've read in a good while. If "they" hadn't died in any of the world wars you would'nt even be here you smug prick.

    [quote:64eeaa6c74]And it's even more outrageous to say that people HAVE to wear a poppy[/quote:64eeaa6c74]

    Nobody is saying you HAVE to wear a poppy but for those of us that do WANT to wear one as a symbol of remembrance it would be nice to be able to do so without some small minded politically driven bigots wanting to kill you for it.

    [/quote]
    Wear a white ribbon to respect the dead, why should it be a poppy?
    Unless you've some sort of political agenda...but surely not.
    [/quote]


    Its a poppy because thats what symbolised the dead of the first world war - LEST WE FORGET y'know.
    To some people the fields of poppies that grew on the fields in northern France and Belgium where some of the worst fighting happened looked like fields of blood. They reminded them of the soldiers that had died there.

    It carried on to the second world war. It was only in 1980 that it was decided to include all who have died in service. The only people with a political agenda are those that would make others believe that the poppy stands for anything more.

    God i hate this island
  127. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:70e1faa676="Steven Dedalus"][quote:70e1faa676="The enfant terrible"]Prince Charles should never be king. His love for Camila Parker Bowles is wrong. When the current queen dies William should ascend to the throne.[/quote:70e1faa676]

    For some reason I had a dream the other night where Prince Charles died before the Queen, and she was laughing at the hilarity of it all.[/quote:70e1faa676]

    Dream of beating Prince Charles? Wake up and apologise.
  128. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:93bb080e82="Redfin"][quote:93bb080e82]I second that.
    It's absolutely retarded coming up with that overused and meaningless sentence "they died for you". Bullshit! They didn't die for me.

    [/quote:93bb080e82]

    This is the most absurd comment i've read in a good while. If "they" hadn't died in any of the world wars you would'nt even be here you smug prick.[/quote:93bb080e82]

    Hold on a minute, how the fuck do you know that? I suspect that WW1, being a futile, imperialist war, has little or no bearing on whether I was born. Perhaps, had the British Empire been roundly defeated, I wouldn't have been born in "Northern" Ireland, I'll grant you that. But I'll bet you I WOULD have been here, you smug prick.

    [quote:93bb080e82]And it's even more outrageous to say that people HAVE to wear a poppy[/quote:93bb080e82]

    [quote:93bb080e82="Redfin"]Nobody is saying you HAVE to wear a poppy but for those of us that do WANT to wear one as a symbol of remembrance it would be nice to be able to do so without some small minded politically driven bigots wanting to kill you for it.[/quote:93bb080e82]

    I don't think anyone here is arguing that. Of course you shouldn't be killed for wearing a poppy! Who here says you should. You're free to wear one, and I respect it and think it's fair enough. It's those of us who won't wear one that are being called ignorant small-minded bigots.

    And by "politically-driven", I suspect you mean in a Northern Ireland context.
    Interesting how many people want to shoe-horn some kind of sectarian, anti-British agenda into this, even though most of the reasons given for not wearing a poppy involve Iraq and Afghanistan - which a substantial amount of British people also opposed, might I remind you. So it's hardly Anti-British like, you smug prick.

    [/quote]
    Wear a white ribbon to respect the dead, why should it be a poppy?
    Unless you've some sort of political agenda...but surely not.
    [/quote]


    [quote:93bb080e82="Redfin"]Its a poppy because thats what symbolised the dead of the first world war - LEST WE FORGET y'know.[/quote:93bb080e82]

    First off, it symbolises a lot more than that, as you admit later in the post.

    Secondly, perhaps we should forget that utterly futile imperialist war? Or at least not try to pretend that it was somehow for OUR benefit. Because it wasn't. In fact, my ancestors were blatantly LIED to to make them join up, so that what they thought they were fighting for wasn't the case at all. That sounds eerily familar actually.

    [quote:93bb080e82="Redfin"]It was only in 1980 that it was decided to include all who have died in service.[/quote:93bb080e82]

    Yes, 28 years ago. As in, previous to now. Meaning that, since then, it has symbolised those who die in all wars, like the ones in Iraq and afghanistan, that lots of us actually OPPOSED. So they certainly haven't died for me.

    [quote:93bb080e82="Redfin"]The only people with a political agenda are those that would make others believe that the poppy stands for anything more.[/quote:93bb080e82]

    Anything more than what? Than remembrance for ALL british soldiers who have died for Britain, in ALL wars? But I DON'T WANT TO REMEMBER THEM. Some of them MURDERED distant relatives of mine. Some of them are fighting an illegal war that I didn't want them to fight. And some of them were duped into fighting a war by the very military establishment that now wants ME to remember them.

    Fuck off.
  129. avatar Chi-Lite
    Oh right, I don't see how it suddenly gets egregious [i:062059307d]now[/i:062059307d]. Just because I said "fuck off"?

    Wise the bap there son, keep a Desmond Dekker
  130. avatar Redfin
    [quote:d7ca17a45b]Hold on a minute, how the fuck do you know that? I suspect that WW1, being a futile, imperialist war, has little or no bearing on whether I was born. Perhaps, had the British Empire been roundly defeated, I wouldn't have been born in "Northern" Ireland, I'll grant you that. But I'll bet you I WOULD have been here, you smug prick.
    [/quote:d7ca17a45b]

    You're only here because of the millions of different coincidences that took place up to you being conceived. Any change to those coincidences would mean that you would not be here. Wether thats a world war or a road traffic accident. Better than that you weren't even the smug prick whose quote that was.

    [quote:d7ca17a45b]I don't think anyone here is arguing that. Of course you shouldn't be killed for wearing a poppy! Who here says you should.[/quote:d7ca17a45b]


    Isn't that why this whole fucking thread was started!



    [quote:d7ca17a45b]And by "politically-driven", I suspect you mean in a Northern Ireland context.
    Interesting how many people want to shoe-horn some kind of sectarian, anti-British agenda into this[/quote:d7ca17a45b]


    I'll refer you to my above statement - and believe me I don't just mean politically driven nationalists, I said and mean anyone. You are the one who keeps picking up on the anti-British thing.

    I don't agree with the wars in iraq or afghanistan but they won't make me forget the people who died in the two WORLD wars.

    By the way the idea of the poppy for remembrance was actually an American one.
  131. avatar The Grace Jones
    [quote:19d1775206="Chi-Lite"]Oh right, I don't see how it suddenly gets egregious [i:19d1775206]now[/i:19d1775206]. Just because I said "fuck off"?

    Wise the bap there son, keep a Desmond Dekker[/quote:19d1775206]

    You are basically the Egregious Injection into any thread. You need medication you crazy bastard, you really are going increasingly Prog these days.
  132. avatar T Entertainment
    What [i:e1892fa768]did[/i:e1892fa768] the Romans ever do for Marty tho? :P
  133. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:41afa6273e="Jimmy Seagus"]
    Presumably then by that logic you'd be happy to donate to a Waffen SS or Khmer Rouge veterans fund? It could be argued that they're human beings caught up in circumstances of history too, no?[/quote:41afa6273e]
    When the thought came to me, I asked myself at the time, would I have similar sympathy to badly injured people involved in causes I don't personally believe in - and yes I would, on the unbelievable grounds that it's the christian thing to do, to help people in need.

    I'm a total heathen, yet the idea still moves me, of a wee bit of forgiveness, and cutting people some slack in their time of need.

    Though I'm let off from having to directly contribute to the above causes because the Khmer Rouge don't usually stand in the centre of Lisburn collecting for their injured.
  134. avatar The enfant terrible
    Let it be known that I'm hard as fuck! I'd kick anyone's fuck in. I'd break my foot off in someone's ass. I'd kick anyone's fuck in. I don't give a fuck. I'd open a large can of whoopass and muthafucka's be feeling pain. I crush bones. Muthafuckas be screaming down the phone to the cops asking them for help but the cops know I've a can of whoopass waiting for those muthafuckas I will destroy anyone who wants to have a fight. I'd also like to make it clear that I will not start the fight or coax it out of random strangers or passers-by. Instead I will beat down anyone in a fight by appointment, Challenge me! I dare you! Think pain. Expect pain.
  135. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:4b4e17b69c="artofdarkness"][quote:4b4e17b69c="Jimmy Seagus"]
    Presumably then by that logic you'd be happy to donate to a Waffen SS or Khmer Rouge veterans fund? It could be argued that they're human beings caught up in circumstances of history too, no?[/quote:4b4e17b69c]
    When the thought came to me, I asked myself at the time, would I have similar sympathy to badly injured people involved in causes I don't personally believe in - and yes I would, on the unbelievable grounds that it's the christian thing to do, to help people in need.[/quote:4b4e17b69c]

    Fair play then. You're absolutely and completely right. Simple as that.
  136. avatar tinpot anto
    [img:bca3420c7b]http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/funny-dog-pictures-so-there.jpg[/img:bca3420c7b]
  137. avatar fastfude
    [img:e6a816db31]http://bucket.unstoppablerobotninja.com/whar.jpg[/img:e6a816db31]