1. avatar rentaghost
    I've probably posted about this before, so forgive me if I have another rant about it.

    Can anyone explain to me why some people go to the effort of asking me for a gig, booking a date and then just not showing up, despite being contacted pre-gig and given notice about soundcheck and stage times etc?

    Why the just [i:3d13a6cfd5]not showing up[/i:3d13a6cfd5]?

    CG had this happen to us again on Friday night with JAdams (I have got to the point of naming and shaming now)and it has happened before with other people. Sometimes at least they let you know by calling or texting just before the gig (which is also pretty unacceptable in my view, and some of the excuses I [i:3d13a6cfd5]have[/i:3d13a6cfd5] received just beggar belief). Even if I can get a couple of days notice, I can book someone else.

    Smitty reckons he doesn't get this problem at NI:NG and I would assume there are a few reasons for this, including the fact that NI:NG has a reputation for paying bands well and the fact that they are more likely to book better established bands.

    I have noticed that I tend to get "no-shows" when I book new acts or people that haven't played the cafe before, and this has the effect of me being less likely to book new acts in future, which makes me kind of sad.

    Maybe people don't actually realise just how many half-decent singer-songwriters there are looking for gigs in Belfast, and just how easy it is to scupper your chances of getting a gig?

    I suppose there will always be the occasion when something genuninely drastic happens, and I hope that Friday wasn't one of these instances, but even if that were the case, is a phone call too much to ask for?

    /rant
  2. avatar Steven Dedalus
    I fully understand your problem, and can add that from the perspective of a punter, when there's a no-show, the tendency is to blame the promoter, because obviously they should have sorted it, etc, etc.

    Having been involved in booking gigs, I appreciate the frustration of just waiting for news, and hearing nothing at all.

    Although, in fairness, I've probably played a few gigs where people wished I'd been a no-show.
  3. avatar rentaghost
    Short of organising a chauffeur-driven limousine service or a press gang, I'm not sure what else can be done, to be truthful.
  4. avatar whosbainejakey
    Short of resorting to tiger kidnapping, I'd say a signed contract is the way to go to ensure professionalism.
  5. avatar rentaghost
    Bit much for the cafe though, innit. If I was paying people I would definitely go down that road, but considering all they are playing for is coffee and sandwiches...
  6. avatar thebatgranny
    Actually, in value terms, the payment offered by Common Grounds is probably on a par with or more than your average gig. I mean, a pannini and a coffee is what, six quid? times five is 30 worth of scran, more if you go for a desert.

    Tastes nicer than notes too.

    edit: That's got me in the mood for a CG pannini, mmmm..
  7. avatar fastfude
    Perhaps just naming and shaming in a polite but fair way will help - no vitriol, just "X didn't turn up to play, and didn't contact us to cancel". Many promoters will be reading this and taking note.
  8. avatar rentaghost
    seriously though, even if you have a signed contract, the only recourse you have is legal action for breach of that contract. More hassle than its worth for most gigs, I'd imagine. Its different if you have a sizeable outlay for the gig - flights, hotels etc to pay for.
  9. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:1cd7516d11="fastfude"]Perhaps just naming and shaming in a polite but fair way will help - no vitriol, just "X didn't turn up to play, and didn't contact us to cancel". Many promoters will be reading this and taking note.[/quote:1cd7516d11]

    I know.

    Some of the suggestions for revenge that I have been getting by PM are really quite creative and rather entertaining, though.
  10. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:7b6cc37f39="rentaghost"]Smitty reckons he doesn't get this problem at NI:NG and I would assume there are a few reasons for this, including the fact that[/quote:7b6cc37f39]

    Smitty looks like he might come round to your house and drag you to the gig by the balls if you don't show? :)
  11. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:51f902dbc8="my-angel-rocks"][quote:51f902dbc8="rentaghost"]Smitty reckons he doesn't get this problem at NI:NG and I would assume there are a few reasons for this, including the fact that[/quote:51f902dbc8]

    Smitty looks like he might come round to your house and drag you to the gig by the balls if you don't show? :)[/quote:51f902dbc8]

    I really [i:51f902dbc8]must[/i:51f902dbc8] get him more involved in the cafe....
  12. avatar Rock Danger
    Pay the people. They usually show up if there's money involved - when there's no money, they have more of an option to go "meh"

    And even naming and shaming on here won't do that much since solo artists have millions of places to play, it's entertainment for your business right? pay em.
  13. avatar danbastard
    Sometimes it's out of the band's/performer's hands though. They could get let down by people, it's happened to us before when we were meant to tour, the driver would pull out at the last minute, leaving us trying to frantically find another driver/bus times etc. Also, having been on the bill with no shows loads of times, I find that it's never the promotor blamed.

    On several occasions the promotor's a no show aswell which is worse for all concerned, haha!
  14. avatar fastfude
    There are more solo artists than there are venues to play in. Develop a reputation as a time waster and it'll become that much harder to get a foot in the door when there are more more reliable performers right behind you in the queue.

    As for payment, that does help, but CG is a non-profit organisiation raising money for charity. The less they have to outlay for running costs and fees, the more goes to charitable donation.
  15. avatar JTM
    I'm sorry for you K, it's an occupational hazard.

    All I do is try and research artists as best I can. I've had grandmothers die and bass players quit on the day of gigs, but the bands involved still have my respect as they let me know.

    I only wish those kind of people who lap out and let everyone down knew how much it hurts everyone. Especially themselves.

    EDIT: I agree with all above. Other promoters should know (through FF if ness) if an act is a pain to deal with. And yes, the threat of Smitty would put a stop to no-shows in an instant. Scary man.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  16. avatar feline1
    It seems to me that the whole "timewaster" phenomenon is becoming increasingly prevelant in society.
    I think a lot of it stems from the fact that a lot of these loons organise their meetings and engagements either by txt or on the Interweb, meaning they do so in a realm of depersonalized fantasy.
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  17. avatar Rock Danger
    [quote:8783c34fdc="fastfude"]There are more solo artists than there are venues to play in. Develop a reputation as a time waster and it'll become that much harder to get a foot in the door when there are more more reliable performers right behind you in the queue.[/quote:8783c34fdc]

    Yeah, but there's so many terrible ones the balance is restored the amount of bars you can play in is massive, not to mention the streets in town.

    [quote:8783c34fdc="fastfude"]As for payment, that does help, but CG is a non-profit organisiation raising money for charity. The less they have to outlay for running costs and fees, the more goes to charitable donation.[/quote:8783c34fdc]

    I understand and all well and good etc - but business is business at the end of the day and solo guys seem to get paid well compared to bands.
  18. avatar T Entertainment
    "Pay the people. They usually show up if there's money involved - when there's no money, they have more of an option to go "meh"

    And even naming and shaming on here won't do that much since solo artists have millions of places to play, it's entertainment for your business right? pay em."

    Erm, but in this case it's a non-profit, charity venue, with the money going to various good causes.
    I think that makes it even more not on to simply not weigh in - only in extreme circumstances would someone be unable to make any form of contact with a promoter.
    Maybe that was the case in this instance, but the broader point stands.
  19. avatar tinpot anto
    No. A Common Grounds gig is a lovely experience, as far as Belfast gigs go it's a little piece of paradise. Karen has everything sorted sound wise. You turn up and get coffee and a nice sandwich for your dinner, the people who come in are normally polite and quiet and the cake they pay for raises money for charity.

    It's over by half 8.

    Asking for money for that would be incredibly crass.

    Actually Karen I could do with another wee dose of all that, any slots going?
  20. avatar rentaghost
    The music usually runs 8pm - 9.30pm.

    I'll be looking for more people for November and December fairly shortly.

    The whole point of having bands in CG is to raise more money for the chosen charity, to which all our profits go.

    We are also certified by PRS as treating bands properly and 'supporting the composers and performers of original music', so they obviously don't see the exchange of food for music, instead of cash for music as a difficulty.
  21. avatar Recycled Alien
    [quote:1e1bd6faa3="Rock Danger"]Pay the people. They usually show up if there's money involved - when there's no money, they have more of an option to go "meh"

    And even naming and shaming on here won't do that much since solo artists have millions of places to play, it's entertainment for your business right? pay em.[/quote:1e1bd6faa3][size=24:1e1bd6faa3][color=yellow:1e1bd6faa3]It's
    a
    charity![/color:1e1bd6faa3][/size:1e1bd6faa3]
    :-D
  22. avatar dirty stevie smitty
    Seriously Mr Danger, it's a f##kin charity set-up with ALL the profits going to charity. The bands get fed and watered, more so than a lot of promoters would do for acts.

    I've been saying to Rentaghost for months to start naming and shaming, as this nonsense is completely unacceptable, and any turds that get on like this, need to be known to other promoters.

    I bet you it will make people think twice.
  23. avatar feline1
    Re getting paid: if the musicians involved are members of PRS or IMRO, and are playing thier own material, remind them that if they tell PRS or IMRO about the gig, they get paid a fiver or so in songwriting performance royalties.
  24. avatar Rock Danger
    [quote:f2b5919f40="dirty stevie smitty"]Seriously Mr Danger, it's a f##kin charity set-up with ALL the profits going to charity. The bands get fed and watered, more so than a lot of promoters would do for acts.

    I've been saying to Rentaghost for months to start naming and shaming, as this nonsense is completely unacceptable, and any turds that get on like this, need to be known to other promoters.

    I bet you it will make people think twice.[/quote:f2b5919f40]

    Name and shame away, I agree. I know very little about common grounds, so people like Steve Alien saying things like it's a charity isn't exactly helpful.

    Does it mean that they would have to pay for some sort on ents license where the tax man gets a cut of the profit? I just had it in my head that if an act brought you in say... 200 of business and you pay the person 100 - can't you still give it away??

    Or is it more of a 'feature' of the place? My original point was that people are more likely to show up if money is involved [b:f2b5919f40]that's all[/b:f2b5919f40]. I guess it's how legit you wanna be about paying them, but that's another bunch of bananas.
  25. avatar The enfant terrible
    I understand the money thing (even if it is charity) but if it's already been pre-agreed, "we can't pay you but we can feed you" then people don't show it's out of order because they've agreed those terms. Fair enough if something comes up but in nearly every circumstance a phonecall (even last minute) saying you can't make it isn't expecting too much.
  26. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:1dd648b8b9="feline1"]I think a lot of it stems from the fact that a lot of these loons organise their meetings and engagements either by txt or on the Interweb, meaning they do so in a realm of depersonalized fantasy.[/quote:1dd648b8b9]
    Yes, where talking about something is the same as doing it.

    Because a band is a group effort of people being able to turn up in the same place at the same time, I can see how all sorts of things can go wrong, so I'd be understanding of disaster - but NOT of people being incapable of letting me know about it.

    My own gripe used to be bands who talk about their material, about wanting media coverage, then never ever bothering to follow it up, even when I went out of my way to keep in contact - it's like they weren't serious about what they were doing, so being professional about it didn't matter to them, and they thought no further than that.
  27. avatar Saint Dude
    I put on a show last year where two of the three bands pulled out at fairly short notice for very legitimate reasons. A few phone calls later and I had The Rusty Shacklefords and The Raw Powers booked. Turned out to be one of the best shows I was ever at.

    Every cloud has a silver lining.
  28. avatar miss catface
    is it wrong im reading this and i'm surprised people are expecting to be paid at all? i thought it was a given these days that unless you are an established band, headlining shows or lucky enough to get on a bill that has lots of people turn up to it, you just dont get paid. or maybe thats why i'm told to play a different genre...

    if i was offered a gig on a friday night in the centre of town to publicise my bands music, the chance to sell merch and know i'm helping a charity in the process i'd be more than happy! the food is a bonus! obviously if it costs you x money to travel and its really going to be a big loss for not much marketing potential then dont say you're up for it in the first place! i mean is that not common sense?

    as for not showing at a gig with no warning, its just plain rude. of course if theres a reason behind it its understandable, shit happens, but it really takes no effort to send a txt, even if it is that last minute.
  29. avatar mcflymo
    So who is JAdams, is he on Fastfude?
  30. avatar billyfyffe
    I know have let rentaghost down twice which I do feel bad about. I did have a reasonable excuse but still you need to contact a good couple of days beforehand.

    I apologise for my part in this.
  31. avatar Devilspain
    just have a nosey at this thread it is interesting! i personally would be pissed about pulling out of a gig and espec at such short notice!! so yeah bands should be more conciderate and make a promo person aware. Money is a great way to keep bands interested but seriously id play any gig for free its PROMOTION what more do you need!!

    oh and now massive plug my band John shelly and the creatures are playing common grounds on the fri 17th of oct!! and its our first acoustic gig!! i cant wait cause we are really transforming our set for this and hopefully is a must see!! so i would appreciate if you havent seen us before to pop in and have a listen!! :) cheers kev.
  32. avatar gregz
    share the info, name and shame those who let you down without giving any notice or making any contact, if they do it at common grounds it would make me think twice about allowing them on any bill in Laverys or Pavilion. Everyone in this trade knows shit can happen esp with bands where there's various members. But a phone call to the venue or text to the promoter should be done as soon as they realize they aint gonna make it
  33. avatar Cugel
    [quote:3c5532f3ff="mcflymo"]So who is JAdams, is he on Fastfude?[/quote:3c5532f3ff]

    [url]http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4766760964[/url]

    [quote:3c5532f3ff]Jadams Adams is just one of those people who does things that little bit different to everybody else.[/quote:3c5532f3ff]
  34. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:10da99b7f6="jadamsadams.com"]Friday nights Common Grounds show is still on and I should be onstage around 8pm, with Sparks Fly going shortly after. I'll be up at the venue pretty early on, since I honestly don't have a clue where it is, so the plan is to leave very very early![/quote:10da99b7f6]
  35. avatar goatboy
    [quote:29611e497f="my-angel-rocks"][quote:29611e497f="jadamsadams.com"]Friday nights Common Grounds show is still on and I should be onstage around 8pm, with Sparks Fly going shortly after. I'll be up at the venue pretty early on, since I honestly don't have a clue where it is, so the plan is to leave very very early![/quote:29611e497f][/quote:29611e497f]

    Maybe he got lost?

    Anyone spotted a lonely man wandering around the Holylands recently with an acoustic guitar?
  36. avatar TheJaneBradfords
    [quote:eeefda60dc] I just had it in my head that if an act brought you in say... 200 of business and you pay the person 100 - can't you still give it away??[/quote:eeefda60dc]

    More times than not whole bands get paid less than that! Also, when it's a charity event we would NEVER seek to get paid. TBH i would presume when we agree to do a charity gig that we weren't getting paid and if we get some beers it's a bonus. That's the whole point of charity innit? Sacrifice?

    Its simple. There is no cloak and dagger here. People have agreed to play for free so cannot gripe about not being paid.
  37. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:030ca474e8="my-angel-rocks"][quote:030ca474e8="jadamsadams.com"]Friday nights Common Grounds show is still on and I should be onstage around 8pm, with Sparks Fly going shortly after. I'll be up at the venue pretty early on, since I honestly don't have a clue where it is, so the plan is to leave very very early![/quote:030ca474e8][/quote:030ca474e8]

    We are on googlemap.
    Also he was contacted twice - once with a request to contact us if he needed to make any arrangements and once to actually make arrangements. He was also given a contact number.

    He has not been in contact since the gig. I gave him a few days in case he wanted to let me know what went wrong. I actually hope there's nothing seriously wrong with the guy.
  38. avatar Rock Danger
    [quote:1991874a8a="TheJaneBradfords"][quote:1991874a8a] I just had it in my head that if an act brought you in say... 200 of business and you pay the person 100 - can't you still give it away??[/quote:1991874a8a]

    More times than not whole bands get paid less than that! Also, when it's a charity event we would NEVER seek to get paid. TBH i would presume when we agree to do a charity gig that we weren't getting paid and if we get some beers it's a bonus. That's the whole point of charity innit? Sacrifice?

    Its simple. There is no cloak and dagger here. People have agreed to play for free so cannot gripe about not being paid.[/quote:1991874a8a]

    This has nothing to do with people 'griping' about not getting paid after agreeing to play for free. Where did you get that from???

    My questions have already been answered, I understand a bit more about how common grounds works. My original point was maybe a few quid would stop 'no shows' but that [i:1991874a8a]seems[/i:1991874a8a] not to be possible - that's all.
  39. avatar PhatBob
    I did the Love Poetry Hate Islamaphobia in CG a good while back and they were great to us.
    Froma peforming poet's point of view I'd perform pretty much anywhere if asked and never expect to get paid as that's not something that promoters are overly familiar with as a concept here (with the exception on Tom at the Pav) yet.
    To squander a chance to promote your band's music when there is a kind of predermined path to exposure and payment for bands and singers seems quite foolish to me.

    And my lot; Scream Blue Murmur will be in the Empire on the 19th as part of Oxjam - not expecting any payment :-D
  40. avatar albrechtspencil
    I'd say next time this happens to you try ringing around people you already know in Belfast, you could make a list of contacts to try in the case of no-shows. You'd be surprised how many acts would be willing to play at extreme short notice if you were in diffs (I know we would if we could). Afterall every time you get a no-show its effectively money lost for a good cause, nevermind publicity lost for the band/act in question.
  41. avatar churchwarden
    [quote:e9e8c58760]More times than not whole bands get paid less than that! Also, when it's a charity event we would NEVER seek to get paid. TBH i would presume when we agree to do a charity gig that we weren't getting paid and if we get some beers it's a bonus. That's the whole point of charity innit? Sacrifice?[/quote:e9e8c58760]

    Anytime we have organised a charity gig while we , as organisers, have done it for free, we have paid the performers ( albiet less than their full commercial rate,as it is for charity ). There is normally also drink / snacks for the performers...

    anyone wishing to perform for free for penguin people feel free to contact us :D


    Quite frequently I have seen people organising charity events who expect that any performer they ask to perform ought to play for free because it is for charity. If it was a charity / cause the performer is keen to support, then I would expect them to perform for free, but not all the time for every charity they are asked to support.

    Common Grounds is a great charity and has been supportive of music and their choosen charities for years; so the "nice food / no fee" agreement sounds perfect and I would assume the vast majority of performers on fastfude would support it [ if you haven't been yet - go now - buy coffee ].

    Acts having to cancel is one of the hazards of running events - life gets in the way of music sometimes... Fortunately any time people have had to cancel on us, they gave us as much notice as they could, which is fine.

    However if someone just doesn't show up, that is completely different - name / shame and don't book them again.

    ( if the person named in this thread turns up dead in the holylands after asking for directions we will all feel guilty about this you know... )

    ps: bring back the Holylands Arts Festival!
  42. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:8262c23033="churchwarden"][

    ps: bring back the Holylands Arts Festival![/quote:8262c23033]


    no can do, I'm afraid...so everyone MUST go to Oscillations!!!
  43. avatar Recycled Alien
    Actually, I have always felt slightly guilty even taking the free food in Common Grounds. Not that I've ever had the willpower to refuse or anything...
  44. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:e8c50c2fe3="PhatBob"]
    Froma peforming poet's point of view I'd perform pretty much anywhere if asked and never expect to get paid as that's not something that promoters are overly familiar with as a concept here.[/quote:e8c50c2fe3]

    I always ask for money (unless it's for charity), they can only say no, and even if they do I still might do the gig if I think there's other benefits (free food, exposure etc).