1. avatar colin
    Biden to Palin: "Gis a buck at ye', big girl!"

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/democrat-joe-bi.html
  2. avatar T Entertainment
    Mr Biden's pillaging of Neil Kinnock's puts him on pretty thin belitting ice:


    Neil Kinnock...May 1987: "Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? Was it because our predecessors were thick? Does anybody really think that they didn't get what we had because they didn't have the talent or the strength or the endurance or the commitment? Of course not. It was because there was no platform upon which they could stand"

    JOE BIDEN IN Sept 1998... ...campaign: "Why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go a university? Why is it that my wife... is the first in her family to ever go to college? Is it because our fathers and mothers were not bright? ...Is it because they didn't work hard? My ancestors who worked in the coal mines of northeast Pennsylvania and would come after 12 hours and play football for four hours? It's because they didn't have a platform on which to stand."



    So is this the US election thread off the starters' blocks then? :D
  3. avatar rentaghost
    Anyone who refers to themselves in the third person without trace of irony or other forms of humour should be shot at dawn.
  4. avatar Conoh
    http://www.miniclip.com/games/presidential-pounding/en/ all elections should b fought this way
  5. avatar dOUBLEwONDERFUL
    [img:10d3d69b55]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1835/1220295222019nw0.jpg[/img:10d3d69b55]
  6. avatar That Man Fanjo
    Yayus. Wonder if John McC knew that Sarah "How many pints" Palin had skellingtons in the closet/buns in the familial oven when he gave her the nod?
    Political suicide, or a(nother) beckoning finger to insane women voters?

    It also seems that the interweb is awash with rumours that Palin Snr's fifth kid, Trig [who in their right mind would call a Downs baby - or [i:d9fe72cefb]any [/i:d9fe72cefb]baby "Trig"?) actually popped out of Palin Jnr, which is why she missed 5 months of school earlier in the year. Which meant she broke the law (Alaska having an age of consent of 16).

    Sheesh!?



    [b:d9fe72cefb]Bring back Theodore Roosevelt, that's what I say.[/b:d9fe72cefb]
  7. avatar comprachio
    The nomination for VP has traditionally been seen as an indicator of the presidential nominee's judgement.

    The Palin thing is getting worse and worse for McCain. The future father of Palin Jnrs baby has had his myspace made public. Before it was made private he had stuff on it saying he was proud to be a redneck and that he didn't want children!

    I think the 'Trig' thing is a misunderstanding that has come about through leaks of this current pregnancy.

    I think her nomination has been rushed and will do some damage to McCain.
  8. avatar T Entertainment
    Democrats would need to be very careful not to employ or imply the same sort of 'reactionary' gender-based digs at Palin or her family that they would generally lambast republicans for. There is a large female constituency out there and a signigicant proportion of it are aggrieved Hillary supporters. An indeterminate number of women voters will be now more positive towards the McCain campaign - to varying degrees - than they were before. And their antennae for that sort of mud-slinging are more finely tuned than ever after the grim slog of the Democrat nomination race.


    Feminists are already trying to fight this on an ideological basis:
    http://jezebel.com/5044017/sarah-palin-rumors-some-people-are-taking-the-low-road

    But there's a more pressing realpolitik reason for it too.
  9. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:89524a848d="That Man Fanjo"]or a(nother) beckoning finger to insane women voters?[/quote:89524a848d]


    wha?

    Sorry - you've lost me with this line. What do you mean?
  10. avatar churchwarden
    McCain's judgement does seem to have been hilariously bad.

    These days you think campaigns are well resourced, highly paid machines - "New" labour basically copied the demorcats vote-harvesting machine of focus groups and expert levels of media manipulation and spin.

    Before this week, I had assumed that the republicans had spent the last six months gathering info on all possible democratic and republican candidates and that a flow of leaks about Obama would start to appear ( in a Clinton Gennifer Flowers style expose ).

    The fact they appear to have decided "that Hillary looks popular - perhaps we should get a woman on the ticket" over a couple of beers without any real background checks on possible stories that might come out...even the fact that Palin is very conservative means she is hardly like to appeal to marginal Hillary democrats, who would be quite liberal (by american standards).

    Obama should move in for the kill by announcing a cabinet position for Hillary ( perhaps another go at sorting out America's health care system ).
  11. avatar tinpot anto
    The only story about Obama of any interest I've heard is that he went on a Stag Do in some sleepy wee English village and left when the stripper arrived.

    His Granny or Stepmother or something, lives in some council estate in Bradford or somewhere too (google your own details) :)

    The lack of info about Obama leads me to believe he LEAVES NO WITNESSES.
  12. avatar T Entertainment
    "the fact that Palin is very conservative means she is hardly like to appeal to marginal Hillary democrats, who would be quite liberal (by american standards)."

    You'd have thunk...but Hillary ultras have already organised US-wide to support McCain to 'punish' Obama.
    They think that is a more important issue to win and worth a republican getting in next time 'so that [i:c2ae836464]they[/i:c2ae836464] won't do the same at the next nomination'.
    Newsnight and Channel 4 News have covered this and it's not a negligible phenomena. This was before McCain had a female running mate. If she is derided over personal gender-centric issues (anything to do with her daughter or her own reproductive life), more non-Republican (undecided or bitter Hillary fans) are likely to feel sympathy. No significant part of the Republican vote is switching to Obama, under any circumstances.
  13. avatar churchwarden
    [quote:69bcac4803]If she is derided over personal gender-centric issues (anything to do with her daughter or her own reproductive life), more non-Republican (undecided or bitter Hillary fans) are likely to feel sympathy. [/quote:69bcac4803]

    Yes, but if he had picked someone who would appeal to the undecided voters or to disgrunted hillary voters in the first place it would have shown more political sense than appointing someone who the republican appears to have done no checks on.

    While most liberal / leftie voters would not mind about the unmarried pregnant daughter and the drink driving husband, since they are not getting eleceted, surely this will put off core bible bashing "family values" republicans, who will just not vote. It does not matter that they do not transfer their votes to Obama - the non votes could be enough to lose key states.

    At least American politics is fun - we should send all our dull grey political stalwarts over there to learn from the masters...
  14. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    A drink-driving spouse is no bar to Republican candidates to office, as George W. proves, and from what i recall, Betty ford wasn't always just the name of a rehab centre..

    Hell, you can even do it yourself. Cheney has two convictions for same, and it hasn't stopped him.
  15. avatar That Man Fanjo
    [quote:4f19cec617]rentaghost
    02/09/08 12:52 pm
    That Man Fanjo wrote:
    or a(nother) beckoning finger to insane women voters?



    wha?

    Sorry - you've lost me with this line. What do you mean? [/quote:4f19cec617]

    I wasn't implying that [i:4f19cec617]all [/i:4f19cec617]American women voters are insane...
    ... just the insane ones... like, the Dems who have stated unequivocally that if they couldn't vote for Hillary, they'd leap into the McCain camp. Which doesn't strike me as being politically or ideologically... er, logical, given Palin's views and McCain's, well... McCain full stop.
    It's an odd partnership, and one that could prove to be either canny as canny can be or utterly disastrous.
  16. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:6541a63278="That Man Fanjo"]
    I wasn't implying that [i:6541a63278]all [/i:6541a63278]American women voters are insane...
    ... just the insane ones... like, the Dems who have stated unequivocally that if they couldn't vote for Hillary, they'd leap into the McCain camp. Which doesn't strike me as being politically or ideologically... er, logical, given Palin's views and McCain's, well... McCain full stop.
    It's an odd partnership, and one that could prove to be either canny as canny can be or utterly disastrous.[/quote:6541a63278]

    Do you have evidence that all the 'insane' voters who say they are jumping camp are women?
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  17. avatar That Man Fanjo
    Fair do's... I get your point.
    But as a bit of strategic platform-building, it does seem designed to appeal to the girls.*











    [size=9:51afe53c20]* I just don't know when to stop digging, do I?[/size:51afe53c20]
  18. avatar fastfude
    EVERYONE STOP TALKING!

    DIDDY OBAMA BLOG! DIDDY OBAMA BLOG! [url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=thmueS0ngAs]DIDDY OBAMA BLOG![/url]

    :smt082
  19. avatar That Man Fanjo
    Insightful, cogent and wonderfully illuminating.


    I wouldn't be too surprised if Barack gives Diddy a wee friendly phone call and asks him to [b:087e3bba7f][size=18:087e3bba7f]SHUT THE FUCK UP[/size:087e3bba7f][/b:087e3bba7f].


    [quote:087e3bba7f]fastfude
    02/09/08 07:58 pm
    EVERYONE STOP TALKING!

    DIDDY OBAMA BLOG! DIDDY OBAMA BLOG! DIDDY OBAMA BLOG! [/quote:087e3bba7f]


    Not fair. I thought it was going to be Obama's thoughts about [i:087e3bba7f]diddies[/i:087e3bba7f]. [size=9:087e3bba7f](And, possibly, about how he intends to bring about [i:087e3bba7f]change[/i:087e3bba7f] to diddies)[/size:087e3bba7f]

    Unlikely, I know, but hey, anything to break up the tedium of marking.
  20. avatar That Man Fanjo
    Just released...


    [img:f7590f8bb0]http://www.whiterabbitcult.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/palin.jpg[/img:f7590f8bb0]




    It's not real or anything, but, hey, y'know...
  21. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    It can't just be me who sees the stuff about Mrs Palin and reads "Loving Mother" in such close proximity to "NRA Member" and wonders if indeed I'm actually not of the same species.
  22. avatar That Man Fanjo
    Y'gotta realise that where she comes from, they adopt the motto "GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE - POLAR BEARS KILL PEOPLE"


    Oh, and (taking a Heston-esque pose) "You'll take away my gun when you pry it from my [size=9:8ce71d70d5](child's)[/size:8ce71d70d5] cold dead fingers."
  23. avatar rentaghost
    Right - her gender, the pregnant daughter, drink-driving husband and the allegations of misuse of position notwithstanding,

    Palin is pro guns, pro life, anti-gay and only applied for a passport for the first time last year.

    Also

    [quote:38e2a5d88c]For Palin cannot help but polarise the electorate. Everything that liberal, blue-state America can't stand about her makes conservative, red-state America swoon. It's not just about "Jesus babies and guns," as Rush Limbaugh pithily put it. Palin also wants "intelligent design" - creationism - taught in school. When she was mayor of the small town of Wasilla, "she asked the library how she could go about banning books," according to a local official quoted by Time. Palin was worried about "inappropriate" language. "The librarian was aghast" - and was later threatened with the sack.
    [/quote:38e2a5d88c]

    This is someone who has governed one of the least populated states for only 20 months. She has no foreign policy experience.


    She is running as VP for a 72 year old man with a long history of cancer. It is highly likely that she might at some stage assume the Presidency.

    I don't think I can cope with another four years of neo-con nonsense.

    I mean, Biden might have plagiarised Kinnock, but at least he knows who he [i:38e2a5d88c]is[/i:38e2a5d88c]!
    Last edited on , 2 times in total.
  24. avatar comprachio
    [quote:50ebecc3cf]It can't just be me who sees the stuff about Mrs Palin and reads "Loving Mother" in such close proximity to "NRA Member" and wonders if indeed I'm actually not of the same species.[/quote:50ebecc3cf]

    Whatever breaks down the illusion that the man is the breadwinner and protector of the house...
  25. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Well, now, I'm not stating anything about gender roles, man. It's more a case of "loving arent" vs. "I also love guns".

    It's not that I object to guns either, but the NRA? Come on, like. Can anyone give me a sensible reason why any parent could advocate the repeal of the "Clinton Ban"?
  26. avatar trepanner
    [i:74fea12835]You wouldn't understand! You're not a mother![/i:74fea12835]
  27. avatar comprachio
    I was being ironical innit...
  28. avatar goodonpaper
    It's put Obama ahead in the polls by 8 points - you'll not hear me complaining!
  29. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Undoubtedly, at least one of [url=http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_type&category=SPECIALS&disp_cat_id=&ev_class_id=33&ev_type_id=5142&ev_oc_grp_ids=86312&bir_index=]these[/url] would be good for a few quid.
  30. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    [quote:6576ee278d="rentaghost"]Right - her gender, the pregnant daughter, drink-driving husband and the allegations of misuse of position notwithstanding,

    Palin is pro guns, pro life, anti-gay and only applied for a passport for the first time last year.

    Also

    [quote:6576ee278d]For Palin cannot help but polarise the electorate. Everything that liberal, blue-state America can't stand about her makes conservative, red-state America swoon. It's not just about "Jesus babies and guns," as Rush Limbaugh pithily put it. Palin also wants "intelligent design" - creationism - taught in school. When she was mayor of the small town of Wasilla, "she asked the library how she could go about banning books," according to a local official quoted by Time. Palin was worried about "inappropriate" language. "The librarian was aghast" - and was later threatened with the sack.
    [/quote:6576ee278d]

    This is someone who has governed one of the least populated states for only 20 months. She has no foreign policy experience.


    She is running as VP for a 72 year old man with a long history of cancer. It is highly likely that she might at some stage assume the Presidency.

    I don't think I can cope with another four years of neo-con nonsense.

    I mean, Biden might have plagiarised Kinnock, but at least he knows who he [i:6576ee278d]is[/i:6576ee278d]![/quote:6576ee278d]+1
  31. avatar fastfude
    [url=http://www.236.com/blog/w/lee_camp/mccains_voice_mail_to_palin_le_8644.php]McCain's voicemail to Palin[/url]
  32. avatar T Entertainment
    OMG LOL LIKE I HERD PALLIN CALED A VPILF 2DAY AND I SO WD LIK 2 ROLF
  33. avatar That Man Fanjo
    Flip me! Her itinerar-rar-rar-y for the next while has been leaked already.

    [quote:dfc511d333]September 4 - Sarah Palin caught referring to black people as "moors."

    September 8 - Bloggers discover Sarah Palin wrote and failed to sell a mystery novel in 2002 about a former beauty pageant runner-up who becomes VP, only to murder the elderly President and take full control of the country. It's titled, Something I Definitely Promise to Do When I Get a Chance.

    September 12 - Sarah Palin farts, tells the media Bristol did it.

    September 19 - While giving news cameras a tour of her Alaska home, Sarah Palin accidentally opens the wrong closet, causing dozens of skeletons to fall out.

    October 2 - During a debate with Joe Biden, Sarah Palin stabs Joe Biden.

    October 5 - Sarah Palin tells reporters the only way she can orgasm is if she crushes a mouse with her foot. She says it like it's no big deal.

    October 12 - Sarah Palin reveals she's one month pregnant with her sixth child.

    October 30 - Sarah Palin tells the media she's given birth to a beautiful baby boy!

    November 2 - The Palin children escape, begging for safe passage to sanity. Their adventures are immortalized in a series of young adult novels.

    November 4 - After losing the election, Sarah Palin tells the media she won't cry because Christian tears are what Jews dip their celery into on Passover.[/quote:dfc511d333]


    Still think she'll nab a lot of Hillary's crowd. Hick outsiders can be pachyderms [b:dfc511d333]or[/b:dfc511d333] asses, [i:dfc511d333]a la[/i:dfc511d333] Roosevelt the first, Hoover, Truman, Carter, even the Clintons themselves. Just a question of who y'choose to dance with...

    And I also think that McCain's crowd will let rip with the Barack skellingtons that Hillary was afraid to during the primaries.

    Just a hunch, like. Don't know (or particularly care) whether it'll make any difference. Either way it'll just be a bunch of stuff that happens.
  34. avatar That Man Fanjo
    I don't know if there's a recurring theme running through this broad debate about the forthcoming elections.
    A superficial glance, however, would suggest that race, gender and religion are quite important factors.
    SOME have even said that these issues are - and have been - pivotal when it comes to informing and influencing individuals and communities about their rhetorical strategies and organisational methods for bringing about change at grass roots level.

    [b:0089a12754][size=18:0089a12754]IF ONLY[/size:0089a12754][/b:0089a12754] someone would write a breezy, yet meticulously researched and scholarly book about how these processes have occurred at specific times and in particular places, I think we'd all be better people.









    [size=9:0089a12754]Please, just buy the fucking thing, for fuck's sake, I beg of you.[/size:0089a12754]
  35. avatar T Entertainment
    :lol:
  36. avatar The enfant terrible
    ...if I were a lesbian,
    black and bald in my wheelchair...
  37. avatar T Entertainment
    "While her attacks on Obama occupied a significant portion of her speech, Palin also shored up her own reputation as a maverick in Alaska and as an opponent of environmental controls on oil exploration in the Arctic wilderness. As she spoke about energy, a number of people in the hall chanted: "drill, drill.""

    :lol:

    DRILL! DRILL! DRILL! is my new favourite chant.
  38. avatar churchwarden
    [quote:0560d0a789]Please, just buy the fucking thing, for fuck's sake, I beg of you.[/quote:0560d0a789]

    Surely an amazon link required here?
  39. avatar That Man Fanjo
    [quote:bce133d131]churchwarden
    04/09/08 12:21 pm
    Quote:
    Please, just buy the fucking thing, for fuck's sake, I beg of you.


    Surely an amazon link required here? [/quote:bce133d131]


    Ahem.
    Please just buy the fucking thing, for fuck's sake, I beg of you.




    [img:bce133d131]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CBXAHB4AL._SS500_.jpg[/img:bce133d131]

    [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Labors-Promised-Land-Radical-Religion/dp/1572332514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220531715&sr=1-1]Labor's Promised Land: Radical Visions of Gender, Race, and Religion in the South[/url]
  40. avatar That Man Fanjo
    I forgot to mention (re: the above post with a picture of a great book by someone)...
    every book sold means a small donation to the poor and needy. There is now [size=18:681afe0174]NO [/size:681afe0174]excuse not to buy this book.

    In fact, failure to purchase this book is immoral, and is a sign of deviance and impotence.
  41. avatar Niall Harden
    Thrillingly, Barack Hussein Obama will be interviewed tonight at 1am our time by Bill O'Reilly on Fox News. I can't wait!

    [img:75bbcccb9e]http://hanlonsrazor.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/oreilly.jpg[/img:75bbcccb9e]
    [i:75bbcccb9e]A lying, splotchy bully[/i:75bbcccb9e]
  42. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    God, I hate O'Reilly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdtwN_twgrk&feature=related

    This is just about the nastiest bit of journalism ever committed to tape.
  43. avatar Niall Harden
    without even clicking, would that be the "out of respect for your father, i'm going to cut you off" bit? he's some pup.
  44. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    [quote:73e5d293c7="Niall Harden"]Thrillingly, Barack Hussein Obama will be interviewed tonight at 1am our time by Bill O'Reilly on Fox News. I can't wait!

    [img:73e5d293c7]http://hanlonsrazor.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/oreilly.jpg[/img:73e5d293c7]
    [i:73e5d293c7]A lying, splotchy bully[/i:73e5d293c7][/quote:73e5d293c7]Wow, it has never actually occurred to me that the O'Reilly Factor is aired here. Only ever sen clips on Youtube/Daily Show/Colbert. I'm going to have to hunt that out now.
  45. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    It is indeed.

    How that lad didn't chin the saggy bastard I'll never know.
  46. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:e42a4a4dae]Like Josef Frizzel and his daughter doing an infomercial for basement conversions[/quote:e42a4a4dae]

    Frankie Boyle we salute you. :lol:
  47. avatar PhatBob
    Anyone see the Daily Show last night? Great bit about O'Reilly's flip-flopping on Teenage pregnancies. We should respect the Palin family's right to privacy regarding this decision as the child will not be a burden on the taxpayer - but when Britney's wee suster got pregnant her parents were stupid pinheads.
    Then Jon Stewart caught Newt Gingrich (small leprechaun's face on a big head) with a corker - How does Palin say on one hand respect the choice my daughter and I made for her to have this child and on the other say that she will outlaw abortions even in the case of conception being the result of rape? Respect that we had a choice and then I'll deny you the same luxury...

    This kind of thing really gets my goat I tell ya :evil:
  48. avatar Chi-Lite
    Houl on a minute.

    [quote:64eecbd06a]How does Palin say on one hand respect the choice my daughter and I made for her to have this child and on the other say that she will outlaw abortions even in the case of conception being the result of rape? Respect that we had a choice and then I'll deny you the same luxury...[/quote:64eecbd06a]

    This is the most ridiculous thing I've read on here in a while.

    Are you saying, because they made a choice...the right choice...they should therefore respect ALL choice, even those they believe to be morally wrong.

    I mean, hold on.

    What?

    You're saying they're hypocrites for not respecting any choice anybody might make about anything?

    What?

    What?

    I mean, make a point about abortion all you want, I don't think it adds anything to say that, if we make any choice about anything in our lives, we must therefore respect the choice to terminate a human foetus.

    I mean, what?

    what kind of thinking is that?
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  49. avatar artofdarkness
    Unmarried daughter of well-to-do family becomes pregnant - mother and child aren't going to starve or go without, 'choice' is easy when you have the options money can buy. To take away the same 'choice' from others in different circumstances is to reduce further their already reduced options.
  50. avatar churchwarden
    She supports the family values of no sex before marriage

    [url]http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/01/palin-backed-abstinence-education[/url]

    perhaps she might now decide that other children might deserve to have the choice of a more informed education.

    I haven't heard her comment on the pros and cons of drink driving yet...perhaps Alaska is something like Comber, in that it just something you do?

    Trouble is her "down to earth 'woman of the house' " economics were the sort that Magaret Thatcher used to talk about and it did win her a lot of votes.... hopefully all her right wing / fundamentalist / anti- environment nonsense will ensure enough floating voters do not vote for the republicans this year.

    On the plus side, this is even more entertaining than "Wag the Dog" and "Primary Colors". I do hope Bob Woodward is busy getting the inside track for the post election book and film.
  51. avatar PhatBob
    I don't see what was confusing about the point made on the Daily Show.
    She says her daughter is choosing to have the child out of wedlock and people should respect her right to make that choice - but if she (the mother) gets into a position to do so, she will deny the availability of a choice of a course of action even for those who want an abortion because the child was concieved, not just out of wedlock, but as the result of a rape.

    Respect her choice and then let me MAKE YOU do what I think is the right thing.
  52. avatar Chi-Lite
    But they're too COMPLETELY different choices.

    That's like saying, if you respect someone's right to CHOOSE where they send their children to school, you must also accept their right to CHOOSE to murder someone.

    I mean, they're both choices, right?

    I mean, it wouldn't be right for me to CHOOSE where to send my kids to schoold, and then deny the CHOICE of someone to commit robbery, sure it wouldn't.

    Aye.

    logic
  53. avatar PhatBob
    How, in the name of christmas, is that the same as being allowed to choose whether to give birth to a child or have an abortion?

    The woman says respect my daughter's choice then elect me so I can deny you the ability to make that same choice or the converse one.

    Its Friday afternoon - relax.
  54. avatar tenrabbits
    But she's saying you DO have the right to choose.

    You can CHOOSE to have the baby. That's it really.
  55. avatar PhatBob
    Silly old me :roll:
  56. avatar BLANK!
    Palin & McCain are far too conservative. America needs a change, that only a black president will bring.
    I'd vote Obama, although I did enojoy Palin's speech the other day. Found it a bit cringe when the whole family were up though.

    I prefer Obamas policies, get the fuck out of Iraq.
  57. avatar GreenEyedLady
    So strange to be talking about something serious here....

    I notice this whole thread, entitled 'The American Elections', is about Sarah Palin rather than Obama vs McCain, which is interesting in itself...

    As a disabled person I declare myself to be passionately pro life (although I do think that rape and the potential death of the mother etc should be exceptions). Afterall, I could've been flushed down the bog before I was 24 weeks incubated if Westminster MPs who'd never been to Norn Irn had their way, and if I don't have the right to be born I have no status in society... as one Chinese obstetrician said on 5 News today just as the Para Olympics started, 'families like healthy babies. Disblaed babies are bad for families and a drain on society.' Let's not go down that road, folks, no matter how much the fpa and Diane Abbott want us to.

    If my life is some-one else's CHOICE, then I have no choices of my own. It's an open road to Aryanism.

    Having said that, I would vote for the pro-choice Democrats. Statistics clearly show, as some-one has already mentioned, that economics contribute to the decision to end a very young life, and the Republican have proven themselves to be endowed with economic ineptitude of gargantuan propotions. Hell, I can't sell my house in Bangor cos of George Dubya, so wide reaching is their incompetence. So if you want less abortions, Palin is not going to deliver that. Obama is actually more likely to.

    I don't really know what in the world Obama actually plans to do, but the 'anything but the Republicans' gut feeling cannot be ignored. For a while it seemed the media thought Obama would walk with it, but now I think mCain ahs a fighting chance, especially since the Democrats are so divided.

    I find it quite patronising, though, that there seems to be this attitude of 'Hilary was a woman and people liked her. hey, Sarah Pailin's a woman, too...'. As if women don't think beyond gender. Maggie Thatcher was a woman. I like to think iwouldn't have voted for her. If there's goign to eb a woman in the White House, it has to be the right woman. personally, I'm sorry it's not Hilary. She comes across like she'd sell her own granny, but she cares about health care and she's got a brain. I think she'd handle foreign policy shrewdly and with dignity. Ah well.

    As for Palin's daughter, it's her mother who holds all these right wing views. Bristol Palin is 17 and should be leading her own life. It's bad enough to be pregnant at 17 without it being in every paper across the world... good luck to the wee girl.

    Some are expressing the view that the religious right wonh't warm to Sarah Palin, but I think that she'll actually gain a sympathy vote. She'll be both a mother and a grandmother before McCain is mysteriously poisoned.
  58. avatar T Entertainment
    "I can't sell my house in Bangor cos of George Dubya"

    Is he living right next door or just on the same street?

    Here all week.
  59. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:a75f9cb0d1="PhatBob"]How, in the name of christmas, is that the same as being allowed to choose whether to give birth to a child or have an abortion?

    The woman says respect my daughter's choice then elect me so I can deny you the ability to make that same choice or the converse one.

    Its Friday afternoon - relax.[/quote:a75f9cb0d1]

    Right, hold on a minute. A I the only one who sees something wrong with this thinking?

    The "choice" to naturally give birth to a child, when one is pregnant, is simply not in the same league, ballpark or game as the "choice" to artificially terminate that chld. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent with wanting to deny the "CHOICE" to kill an unborn human foetus while at the same time allowing the "choice" to naturally allow that pregnancy to continue.

    I'm really not getting this...she made the "choice", as you say, to keep a baby, therefore she should allow the "choice" of someone else to terminate a baby?

    I mean, if you make a "choice" does that mean you have to allow someone else to make the opposite "choice"?

    IfI make the "choice" NOT to go about randomly murdering people, must I logically allow someone else the "choice" to do so, if they want? That is what you're implying. That because she made a "choice", she's somehow a hypocrite if she doesn't allow the opposite "choice".

    If, for example, she had made the choice to have an abortion, and denied that same choice to others, now that would be hypocrisy. Given that she made the "choice" NOT to have an abortion (she probably didn't see it as a "choice") she hardly a hypocrite for not wanting others to have abortions.

    I think where we're going wrong is the fallacy of using the word "choice" to describe the termination of a human being, and then setting it up as if it's an equally valid "choice" as the "choice" NOT to terminate a human being.

    I mean, really, make a point about abortion all you want. If you think that someone making the "choice" NOT to terminate a human means that they accept to accept someone elses "choice" to terminate that human, well, it is just among the most ridiculous of points I've ever heard.

    Although, on the other hand, I don't know why I'm bothering to labour this point.

    sorry about that folks, carry on.


    So....this Obama. Have you gone insane? Can't you see that this man is a ni?
  60. avatar T Entertainment
    I think this is an interesting point tho. Would people who are fervently anti-abortion vote for a party that was similarly so, even if they were more naturally inclined to the 'left'? If they really see it as a case of stopping (at least some) babies from being murdered, then one can only assume it would?
  61. avatar Chi-Lite
    hmm, that is a very interesting point. I'm not altogether sure what I would do, were I American.

    I mean, naturally, I don't reckon i coud bring mself to vote Repblican, but neither could I vote for a pro-abortion Democrat.

    Although, in saying that, I probably wouldn't vote for an anti-abortion Democrat either.

    I'd probably just do what I do here, and conscientiously abstain.
    But I am actually glad and relieved that we don't have that prolem here, at least not until the SWP get in.
  62. avatar Midhir Records
    To be fair, is getting an abortion really like ordering a burger?

    The process is bureaucratic and drawn out, the decision extremely tough to make. Would there be a significant difference in the number of abortions whether it was legal or illegal? I don't think so. In the case of the former the facilities may allow the mother to make a full recovery and the proceeds won't go to fund back-alley doctoring and organised crime.
  63. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:7fe93b3603="Midhir Records"]To be fair, is getting an abortion really like ordering a burger?[/quote:7fe93b3603]

    Well no, I'm certainly not trying to downplay the levity of it.

    [quote:7fe93b3603="Midhir Records"]The process is bureaucratic and drawn out...[/quote:7fe93b3603]

    I'm not altogether sure that's true. I know you can't walk in off the street for an abortion, but I'm not altogether sure it's so bureaucrtic and drawn out, is it. As I understand it, if you want an abortion you can arrange one fairly quickly, and be home later the same day. In countries where it's legal, obviously.

    [quote:7fe93b3603="Midhir Records"]...the decision extremely tough to make.[/quote:7fe93b3603]


    Of course it is.


    [quote:7fe93b3603="Midhir Records"]Would there be a significant difference in the number of abortions whether it was legal or illegal? I don't think so.[/quote:7fe93b3603]

    idon't know, I'd say there might be. Obviously it wouldn't stop altogether.

    [quote:7fe93b3603="Midhir Records"]In the case of the former the facilities may allow the mother to make a full recovery and the proceeds won't go to fund back-alley doctoring and organised crime.[/quote:7fe93b3603]

    I certainly understand that argument; if something is going to happen anyway, we should strive to make it safe, etc.

    Much the same argument could be applied to hard drugs, for example, but I don't think it works. There's a widerissue at stake, in that giving tacit approval to things like that can lead to a, mostly subconscious, sea-change in public morality and opinion.

    I'm not trying to make some universal comment here, but would you not agree that, in countries where abortions are legal, there are *[i:7fe93b3603]some[/i:7fe93b3603]* people who have had an abortion simply because it was convenient for them? I'm not saying this is at all the norm, or particularly widespread, but aren't there *some* people who see abortion as simply another form of contraception?

    I would say that that is extremely less present in countries where abortion is illegal, for the simple reason that it is not available as an easy option.

    I don't, for one minute, want to suggest that abortion is the "easy option". However, there are *some* people, no doubt miniscule in number, who see abortion as the "easy option"...just get rid of the baby, and forget about it. Where abortion is illegal, it is not an easy option, even for those people (that tiny amount of hypothetical people...feel free to argue with me that no such people exist, but of course we all know that they do).

    of course, if you think it's ok to have an abortion for convenience sake anyway, that won't make a difference. But I just dont buy this argument that, well, it's not right, but it's going to happen anyway, so we should allow it, in a controlled environment. doesn't work like that. Once it's a legal possibility, and relatively widely available, it is no longer the life or death moral issue that it was.
  64. avatar Midhir Records
    Well i am speculating about how difficult it'd be to get an abortion if it was legal, but given what you go through just to get the morning-after pill here I'd imagine it's pretty drawn out and costly.

    I agree there are always going to be a small number of people who abuse the availability of abortion but it'd be extremely small in my opinion. The reason being the scabs who scam benefits (and abuse everything else our system provides) couldn't afford to do it and let's face it, what kind of woman would want a vacuum pump shoved up her pink eye to have her insides sucked out?

    There's a problem with sex education here and it's part of the problem. The republicans in the USA are anti-abortion and oppose current sex-ed programs, thus widening the gap further.
  65. avatar churchwarden
    Oddly enough I find myself in agreement with all of Green Eyed Lady's comments and also Midhir's point about

    [quote:be13b3623e]There's a problem with sex education here and it's part of the problem. The republicans in the USA are anti-abortion and oppose current sex-ed programs, thus widening the gap further.[/quote:be13b3623e]

    As far as I can gather Sarah Palin is not so keen on sex-ed programmes.

    Hopefully all will become clear during the VP debates or any detailed interviews when she can clarify her positions on this.
  66. avatar ryanego
    I find it strange that someone who lives in Alaska and enjoys hunting and fishing, can be so anti environmental.
    Alaska having some of the best hunting and fishing in the world, and some of the most spectacular and beautiful scenery, you'd think if she cared about her state, or at the very least her fishing, she'd want to protect this.

    I sometimes think Americans are less concerned with environmental issues as they still have huge areas of completely untouched wilderness and are therefore a bit blasé about it.

    Maybe the Brits and Irish have more concern as practically every square inch of our ridiculously overpopulated countries has been manipulated/ruined in some way by people. Probably by Sammy Wilson.
  67. avatar George W Best
    [quote:2508f20511="Chi-Lite"]
    I'm not trying to make some universal comment here, but would you not agree that, in countries where abortions are legal, there are *[i:2508f20511]some[/i:2508f20511]* people who have had an abortion simply because it was convenient for them? [/quote:2508f20511]

    He's right you know. Also, did you know that in countries where haircuts are legal there are people who get haircuts simply because it was convenient for them!

    These people who think they should have a choice over what happens to their own bodies are a disgrace! I hope it never happens here.
  68. avatar The Grace Jones
    [quote:488678aa7b="ryanego"]
    Maybe the Brits and Irish have more concern as practically every square inch of our ridiculously overpopulated countries has been manipulated/ruined in some way by people. [/quote:488678aa7b]

    This is a really strange statement to make, particularly with regard to this island which is incredibly sparsely populated by Western standards. Even mainland UK is not particularly densely populated. Where did you get this idea?
  69. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:4bd11bf78b="George W Best"]
    Also, did you know that in countries where haircuts are legal there are people who get haircuts simply because it was convenient for them! [/quote:4bd11bf78b]

    Ha, what an absolute p[b:4bd11bf78b][/b:4bd11bf78b]rick. You should keep the satire for that )*comedy* website you've got there, son.

    I'm sure your hair looks forward to the day when it turns 16 and can move out, eh.
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  70. avatar artofdarkness
    There are probably a lot of people who have sound arguments about abortion - and who also have an entirely different outlook on the justifications of taking life in other scenarios eg what's allowable as warfare.

    The sanctity of human life (born and unborn) isn't at the top of the agenda when national security is threatened... suddenly, human life is worth less than whatever natural resource, abstract border or sense of security is threatened. And collectively, people will go along with it. Then they'll say, abortion is a bad thing.

    If a person isn't committed to the sanctity of life per se, they should not seek to limit the choices of other people based on their own 'movable' set of morals. It's not a crime to be complex and contradictory, but it means no-one holds the high ground. And when it comes to morals, the concept of 'allowing others choice' is an important one to consider, very important.
  71. avatar Chi-Lite
    But it's not really about choice though is it.

    We don't even allow people to "choose" to kill their own bodies, never mind an independent human body temporarily attached to them.

    This choice balls is a red herring.

    I agree with the wider point though, that lots of these people who are so vociferous and morally righteous about abortion are significantly less so when it comes to things like war and gear like that.

    I certainly agree there. so we're decided that she's a dick then, I still think her anti-abortion stance is spot on, and the fact that her daughter "chose" to keep a baby (like it's really just one choice among ohers) means absolutely nothing in that regard, no matter what strange issue John Stewart might try to make out of it.
  72. avatar Midhir Records
    [quote:26baf40b92]
    We don't even allow people to "choose" to kill their own bodies, never mind an independent human body temporarily attached to them.
    [/quote:26baf40b92]

    It's not an independent human body, it relies totally on a host for nutrients and protection. For example it's extremely common for the would-be mother's body to attack and naturally abort the foetus without any conscious input from her, often so early in pregnancy that she has no idea she was ever pregnant, if conditions aren't right.

    It's debatable whether it is murder to destroy a foetus. Pregnancy involves a massive biological sacrifice by a woman to support the incubation of a future baby. Abortion removes the woman's commitment and as a result the foetus dies. Whether you consider the foetus to be alive or not, this is clearly not the same as deliberately taking a life.
  73. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:a72b13d9d4="Chi-Lite"]But it's not really about choice though is it.

    We don't even allow people to "choose" to kill their own bodies, never mind an independent human body temporarily attached to them.[/quote:a72b13d9d4]

    Suicide is a wide-open choice for nearly everyone at any point of their adult lives; that a handful of individuals will move beyond having the physical ability to bring about their own deaths when they wish it, it doesn't diminish the overall availability of suicide as a free choice for most people at any point.

    Also, a human body becomes independent when it is independent - there's no half-measures in the definition; when it's 'temporarily attached' or more accurately, being formed [i:a72b13d9d4]from [/i:a72b13d9d4]the physical resources of the person giving supply to it, it is not of biologically independent existence, it seems not until the latter half of the entire process, when abortion is usually not an option (and certainly not on grounds of lifestyle). In these cases, surgical and medical intervention is still needed to support that life, for some time.

    However, we might say it has an abstract identity, rather than a body, and argue from that point.
  74. avatar ryanego
    [quote:0d35a66fcc="The Grace Jones"][quote:0d35a66fcc="ryanego"]
    Maybe the Brits and Irish have more concern as practically every square inch of our ridiculously overpopulated countries has been manipulated/ruined in some way by people. [/quote:0d35a66fcc]

    This is a really strange statement to make, particularly with regard to this island which is incredibly sparsely populated by Western standards. Even mainland UK is not particularly densely populated. Where did you get this idea?[/quote:0d35a66fcc]

    The USA has a population density of 32 people per square kilometre. The UK has a density of 250 per square kilometre.

    Relatively I would say it's overpopulated.

    Fair enough Ireland's population density is lower, but its still nearly twice that of the USA.

    My point was that some Americans perhaps feel that they can afford to be a little bit more heavy handed with the environment, as there are still vast, pristine wilderness areas all across America.

    Ireland is the most deforested country in Europe at 9.7% cover, with only around 1% of the native oak forest remaining. Before people made a mess of it, The vast majority of Ireland was woodland.

    Now if you drive from one end of Ireland to the other, outside of the towns, you predominantly see little dots of those ridiculous perfectly square edged pine forests, and fields. Outside of the Killarney National park, there's hardly any native woodland left.

    Deforestation, destruction of natural habitats, and by analogy, other environmental issues, should be more familiar to us than to the average American. Or Sammy Wilson.
  75. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:99479bd627="Midhir Records"]It's not an independent human body, it relies totally on a host for nutrients and protection.[/quote:99479bd627]

    What puts lie to that is the fact that aborted foetuses have actally lived after being aborted, and are thus independent. I believe the current thinking is that a foetus can stay alive independently after around 16 weeks.

    What usually happens in those occassions is that the surgeon takes active measures to [i:99479bd627]kill[/i:99479bd627] the independently surviving foetus. That's the issue that's led some medical practitiioners to talk about the absurdity of them trying to save the lives of babies in one part of ahospital, while in another part other doctors take purposeful measures to end the life of another baby, at the same stage of development.

    This isn't about removing a growth from a womans body, it's about killing offspring.

    If independence is your measure, the legally accepted limit of abortion would have to be moved back substantially, and even then, that limit is too fluid to be absolute, what with the fact that it's been pushed back so many times.



    [quote:99479bd627="Midhir Records"]Pregnancy involves a massive biological sacrifice [/quote:99479bd627]

    Indeed. As does being the mother of a two month old baby. That's life, and humanity for ye. Yet we don't allow the mother to CHOOSE to get rid of that two month old baby, just because it's completely dependent on her.

    [quote:99479bd627="Midhir Records"]Whether you consider the foetus to be alive or not...[/quote:99479bd627]

    I don't think even the most vehement pro-abortionist would argue that a foetus is not ALIVE. It's clearly, biologically, alive. I thought you were talkng about whether it was [i:99479bd627]independently[/i:99479bd627] alive...for which argument, see above

    [quote:99479bd627="Midhir Records"]this is clearly not the same as deliberately taking a life.[/quote:99479bd627]

    it clearly is. It's certainly a different motivation from that that leads someone to kill their next door neighbour, who's having an affair with his wife, but, the foetus being ALIVE, it clearly is TAKING A LIFE. And DELIBERATELY too, unless we do it under some drugged up subconscious state.
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  76. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:af5cd29e2b="Chi-Lite"]What puts lie to that is the fact that aborted foetuses have actally lived after being aborted, and are thus independent. I believe the current thinking is that a foetus can stay alive independently after around 16 weeks.[/quote:af5cd29e2b]

    Not independently from medical intervention; they come out (usually assisted) from a biological womb and go straight into a mechanised womb-substitute for the rest of their term. It's a transfer. It's not independent survival.

    Maybe we'll get to the stage where all gestation will be taken over by machines, abortion won't be the problem then, it'll be lawsuits about people accidently unplugging an incubator containing 10,000 people at the 4-week stage.
  77. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:86f884b8b6="artofdarkness"]Not independently from medical intervention; [/quote:86f884b8b6]
    Should we kill everybdy who can't survive without medical intervention then, or wha?
  78. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:bb5603a9ee="Chi-Lite"]
    I don't think even the most vehement pro-abortionist would argue that a foetus is not ALIVE. It's clearly, biologically, alive. [/quote:bb5603a9ee]

    I'm not a pro-abortionist; I am pro-choice. I wouldn't regard a foetus to be alive unless it had a heartbeat or brain activity.
  79. avatar Chi-Lite
    A foetus has [i:dcdc573247]plenty[/i:dcdc573247] of brain activity, long before the legal lmit for abortion is up.

    It's one of those mad things in that, it being a process, any time of distiction is always going to be abitrary...that's why there are always arguments about pushing back the limit.

    No matter what limit you have, you're still faced with the absurdity of saying that a foetus is a human being at such and such a time of its development, but is just a bunch of cells 30 seconds beforehand.

    It's a living thing, going through the process of growth and development, as we all still are.

    I'll not argue with you about about the pro-choice thing. That's like saying that you're "pro-action"..it means nothing. It depends what the choice is, or what acion you take

    It's telling that saying you're pro-choice conveniently avoids actually saying what choice it is that you're so pro.
    I'm pro-chice too then, aye.
  80. avatar fastfude
    [quote:6edbe7ce91]It's telling that saying you're pro-choice conveniently avoids actually saying what choice it is that you're so pro. [/quote:6edbe7ce91]
    He's so pro [i:6edbe7ce91]having[/i:6edbe7ce91] a choice, presumably. What his choice is is up to him. Hence the term "choice", eh?
  81. avatar The Grace Jones
    [quote:36e06c4536="Chi-Lite"]A foetus has [i:36e06c4536]plenty[/i:36e06c4536] of brain activity[/quote:36e06c4536]

    Oh, plenty. Is that more than some but less than a fair bit? I'm not technically minded.

    [quote:36e06c4536="Chi-Lite"]long before the legal lmit for abortion is up.[/quote:36e06c4536]

    In which country? Northern Ireland?

    [quote:36e06c4536="Chi-Lite"]It's a living thing, going through the process of growth and development, as we all still are.[/quote:36e06c4536]

    As indeed is your sperm.

    [quote:36e06c4536="Chi-Lite"]
    I'll not argue with you about about the pro-choice thing. <snip>
    I'm pro-chice too then, aye.[/quote:36e06c4536]

    You're perfectly in tune with all the other fundamentalists then; people who cannot or will not see that their morals and their opinions are their own, and are not shared by everyone;

    Can you allow for the possibility that there are people [i:36e06c4536]with[/i:36e06c4536] morals, [i:36e06c4536]with[/i:36e06c4536] beliefs, who believe that they are "[i:36e06c4536]good[/i:36e06c4536]" people, and yet are radically at odds with more or less every opinion you appear to harbour? And some of them might think [i:36e06c4536]your[/i:36e06c4536] morals are out of whack? Can you fit this in?
  82. avatar artofdarkness
    [quote:6b5a89936b="Chi-Lite"] Should we kill everybdy who can't survive without medical intervention then, or wha?[/quote:6b5a89936b]

    Not at all, I was responding to your idea of physical independence being a reson not to abort; I was pointing out that at 16 weeks, the foetus is not going to be sitting up doing the Times crossword, it's either going to be inside a real womb, or inside the next best thing medicine has come up with, with tubes attached to it. Dependent one way or the other.

    To argue for viability on the basis of bodily independence (a) isn't the most solid argument there is, and (b) it's not me making that argument in the first place.
  83. avatar That Man Fanjo
    If I smash an egg, am I killing a chicken?

    I eat eggs, but I don't eat chickens. Or any other kinds of birds. Ducks. Quails. Ostriches.

    I don't have a problem with the moral maze this choice puts me in.

    In fact, the [i:181d4ee7c8]fanjo's patented mexican breakfast[/i:181d4ee7c8]* I had today doesn't burden my conscience in the slightest.
    I [u:181d4ee7c8][b:181d4ee7c8]had [/b:181d4ee7c8][/u:181d4ee7c8]to eat it, and will live with the consequences.
    A lot of other people will have to live with the consequences too, unfortunately.







    [i:181d4ee7c8]* Add olive oil and [b:181d4ee7c8]lots [/b:181d4ee7c8]of garlic to a hot pan. Add chopped onions, peppers and courgettes and fry gently for a few minutes before adding mushrooms and a couple of freshly chopped tomatoes (not the tinned kind). Season with plenty of chilli powder/fresh chillis, some Louisiana hot sauce, oregano and paprika. Add a tin of baked beans, 1/2 a tin of kidney beans and a tin of refried beans. Let the mixture heat until bubbling. Using whatever kitchen tool is at hand, scrape at the delectable mush, exposing a couple of patches on the surface of the pan, onto which you crack an egg or two. Then after the eggs are half done, stick under the grill to finish the fuckers off.

    You can actually render people unconscious with this meal, simply by tooting at them. [/i:181d4ee7c8]
  84. avatar The Grace Jones
    Fanjo, that sounds f*cking fantastic right now.
  85. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:f33c916b26="fastfude"][quote:f33c916b26]It's telling that saying you're pro-choice conveniently avoids actually saying what choice it is that you're so pro. [/quote:f33c916b26]
    He's so pro [i:f33c916b26]having[/i:f33c916b26] a choice, presumably. What his choice is is up to him. Hence the term "choice", eh?[/quote:f33c916b26]

    no, hold on, that is just so open and ambiguous as to mean absolutely nothing.

    You're pro [i:f33c916b26]having[/i:f33c916b26] a choice? A choice about what? Are you pro "having the choice to rape and murder". Are you pro "having the choice to burn down symbols of capitalism"? Are you pro "having the choice to discrinminate against people of other races and creeds"?

    Are you pro "having all those choices" or are you just pro "having the choice to terminate your unborn child"?

    If so, tell us that that is the choice you are in favour of people having. Why speak about it as if you're somehow pro "choice in general", and as if those who disagree with people having that particular choice are therefore against "Choice", and by extension enemies of free will. Because that's not the case. I am against people being allowed the choice to take a particular course of action. no doubt there are many courses of action that you don't think we should be free to "choose". That doesn't make you "anti-choice", which would be just as meaningless as being "pro-choice".

    [quote:f33c916b26="The Grace Jones"]

    You're perfectly in tune with all the other fundamentalists then; people who cannot or will not see that their morals and their opinions are their own, and are not shared by everyone;[/quote:f33c916b26]

    Of course I see that. However, i'm not a relativist. Are you suggesting that, because we all hold different opinions, they're all, like, equally, like, [i:f33c916b26]valid[/i:f33c916b26], man? Ha, that might work for the indie/Metal debate lad, but not here.

    [quote:f33c916b26="The Grace Jones"]Can you allow for the possibility that there are people with morals, with beliefs, who believe that they are "good" people, and yet are radically at odds with more or less every opinion you appear to harbour? And some of them might think your morals are out of whack? Can you fit this in? [/quote:f33c916b26]

    yes, of course I can.

    I'm not sure what point you're getting at, but in this type of debate the anti-abortionist is always fairly rapidly caricatured as a simple narrow minded bigot who cannot seeor accept that other people have different views. So you're following precedent there.

    I fully accept that there are people who hold different views from mine. But I think they're wrong.

    And it's telling that, whenever I try to raionally discuss why I think they're wrong, in a very short time rational debate breaks down, and I'm hit with "you just can't accept that other people have different views."
    Now, whatever way you look at it, that's not an argument abot how right or wrong those views are.

    Let's have that argument, eh.

    I fully accept that, in all good conscience, you have different views from mine, and I don't think that makes you a bad person. :-D
    Now, I think those views are wrong, for all the reasons I've been talking about. So what do you reckon, apart from the view that I'm somehow close minded? you tell me then, why is it acceptable to terminate the natural process of the growth of a human person, just for convenience sake?
  86. avatar fastfude
    Ah, you want to debate the term in general, outside the context of abortion, as a sort of rule for life? I don't. I've only ever seen the term used in the context of the debate on abortion and that's how I and others on this thread have been applying it, no further.

    There may well be other places it can also be applied for similar principles and still others where it can't, but each of those cases are debates in themselves.
  87. avatar The Grace Jones
    [quote:0828acb752="Chi-Lite"]
    Are you pro "having all those choices" or are you just pro "having the choice to terminate your unborn child"?[/quote:0828acb752]

    I'm 99.99% certain it just refers to "pro" that last one, yeah.

    [quote:0828acb752="Chi-Lite"]
    I fully accept that there are people who hold different views from mine. But I think they're wrong.
    [/quote:0828acb752]

    I realise this. But I think you're wrong.

    [quote:0828acb752="Chi-Lite"]
    you tell me then, why is it acceptable to terminate the natural process of the growth of a human person, just for convenience sake?[/quote:0828acb752]

    I didn't mention "convenience" and you must surely be aware that calling it out that way is a ridiculous generalistion and simplification.

    We're not talking about a human [i:0828acb752]person[/i:0828acb752] here, we're talking about a human [i:0828acb752]foetus[/i:0828acb752]. "Person" is very much open to interpretation as a term, but a foetus does not satisfy very many of the conditions of most definitions of "a person". Perhaps you think a foetus [i:0828acb752]is[/i:0828acb752] a person; I personally don't. There isn't any point having an argument over it; you're not willing to have your mind changed and frankly right now neither am I.

    And talking about "murder", as earlier; murder is a legal term, where abortion is carried out legally it is therefore not "murder"; that part is utterly not open to your interpretation.
  88. avatar artofdarkness
    I have no problem with 'choice' being an ambiguous concept with no trite terms of definition, because choice is all about a human being getting the chance to cope with multiple options and the ensuing responsibilities of choosing them. Choice offers no perfect answer, and if you start thinking about where 'the concept of choice in general' may end up, it's too many potential outcomes for your mind to consider, like a big Mandelbrot set in your brain.

    Choice is about working with your own sense of personal responsibility.

    When it comes to abortion, I support the idea that it should be available as a choice for those carrying a baby. It is up to them to debate the values and the outcomes, and to make their decision and take on the result, outside of whatever I may think, sitting here in my armchair.
  89. avatar Chi-Lite
    Right, f[b:9b893a6d9b][/b:9b893a6d9b]uck that...

    I've just written three lengthy replies, all of which have been lost, even thoughmy connection seems to be at full speed.

    So I'm taking that as a sign, and I'm now not gonna bother arguing anymore.

    [i:9b893a6d9b]But they were knock-down replies, so sucked in.[/i:9b893a6d9b]

    :-D
    EDIT:
    Ha, and i see ths message went in first time too. Just as Isuspected...
  90. avatar The Grace Jones
    And there was much rejoicing.
  91. avatar Chi-Lite
    Aye, that's it,
    [i:8646b10b38]Mock[/i:8646b10b38].

    Mock away :lol:

    And here,
    [i:8646b10b38]Scorn[/i:8646b10b38]
    :x

    Hold on, that's not [i:8646b10b38]scorn[/i:8646b10b38]
  92. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:086abdca85="fastfude"][quote:086abdca85]It's telling that saying you're pro-choice conveniently avoids actually saying what choice it is that you're so pro. [/quote:086abdca85]
    He's so pro [i:086abdca85]having[/i:086abdca85] a choice, presumably. What his choice is is up to him. Hence the term "choice", eh?[/quote:086abdca85]

    Exactly. And saying pro-choice means your argument doesn't just focus on pro-abortion, anti-abortion but on people's right to make those decisions for themselves.
  93. avatar Chi-Lite
    [quote:8a00f17623="The enfant terrible"][quote:8a00f17623="fastfude"][quote:8a00f17623]It's telling that saying you're pro-choice conveniently avoids actually saying what choice it is that you're so pro. [/quote:8a00f17623]
    He's so pro [i:8a00f17623]having[/i:8a00f17623] a choice, presumably. What his choice is is up to him. Hence the term "choice", eh?[/quote:8a00f17623]

    Exactly. And saying pro-choice means your argument doesn't just focus on pro-abortion, anti-abortion but on people's right to make those decisions for themselves.[/quote:8a00f17623]

    Yes, that choice about abortion. Because that's the only choice you're talking about. that one about abortion. Which you're in favour of. So, in a sense, your argument is all about pro-abortion and anti-abortion, and people's right to make [i:8a00f17623]that[/i:8a00f17623] decision. So stop tryig to avoid it, or make it soundlike it's about [i:8a00f17623]choice[/i:8a00f17623] in general. It's about making the choice to artificially end the life of thon human in ye.

    However, i digress from that Stoicism I was getting there. Luckily, this is my last post!

    La la la la la, la a a la la la la.
  94. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:b200cc85ad="Chi-Lite"] It's about making the choice to artificially end the life of thon human in ye.[/quote:b200cc85ad]

    No, it's about people's right to make that decision for themselves.
  95. avatar artofdarkness
    These days, abortion is only part of a much wider arena of acts that 'interfere with the natural course of conception' what with IVF in all its varieties and embryo screening and whatnot - which involves wastage of many potential lives in the process of creating one wanted child. If you disapprove of abortion and being casual with human life from the outset, there's a lot to disapprove of in that area of medicine too, and as an industry, it's growing and making huge profits.

    I may not approve of the idea of some fertility treatments, but I also have no idea what it's like to want to start a family and not be able to, so I won't be standing in anyone's way because of the embryos being thrown in the biohazard bin at the end of the working day in the fertility clinic. People who really want a baby won't care much about them either, and I don't hear that many anti-abortionists widen their arguement to include this sector, maybe because it takes bit of scientific research, rather than emotional reaction.
  96. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:3fe9fca156="fastfude"]Ah, you want to debate the term in general, outside the context of abortion, as a sort of rule for life? I don't. I've only ever seen the term used in the context of the debate on abortion and that's how I and others on this thread have been applying it, no further.[/quote:3fe9fca156]

    It is a terribly loaded term though, designed not so much to explain the viewpoint, as to vilify the holder of the opposing view.

    Not that pro-life is any better.
  97. avatar fastfude
    Oh indeed. It's not like the popular argument is even winnable by either side anymore, it's too impassioned and vitriolic. The world needs an egregious forum.
  98. avatar T Entertainment
    Have you people not got this 'abortion debate' sorted out yet?!
    FFS, I logged in this morning assuming it would be resolved once and for all, here and in the wider world! Jesus, Roger, get your f*cking finger out.


    I'm with:

    [img:1cf938d228]http://duffmaru.freeservers.com/kangnkodos.jpg[/img:1cf938d228]

    "Abortions for some, tiny America flags for everyone!"
  99. avatar DeliriumTremens
    Yeah sort it out, i thought this topic was about the US election and now its just about how pro-life chi-lite is.
  100. avatar rentaghost
    I love how the debate on the American elections has descended to discussing how nice Sarah Palin's glasses are.

    "Who should run the most powerful country in the west?
    Ooh I don't know, but don't those specs [i:f28da54d76]work[/i:f28da54d76] on her.
    They're [i:f28da54d76]fierce[/i:f28da54d76]."

    I want to know more about Joe Biden.
  101. avatar T Entertainment
    India Knight in the ST, after telling us how jolly excited she is that a recession is looming, as thrift is SO invigorating:


    [i:acda8707aa]
    Women may find Sarah Palin, John McCain’s running mate, terrifyingly off-putting, but every man I've spoken to this week, of every political persuasion, has told me how much they fancy her. Like, really fancy her.

    I naturally fulfilled my journalistic obligation by quizzing a number of them as to why this should be. The result is: they fancy her because she looks like a porn star, specifically a porn star playing the “good” girl who’s about to do something very, very bad.

    “She’s the ultimate MILF,” said one friend (’scuse his vocab).

    “She’s like the housewife waiting for the pizza delivery man,” said another. ‘And then they, you know . . .’

    “She takes off her glasses and unpins her chignon,” said yet another man, prefacing a baroque scenario that is not suitable for a family newspaper.

    Nothing to do with her shooting moose, then? Nope: the attraction is basic and physical.

    “Hate her politics,” said a friend, “but she’s the sexiest woman I’ve seen in a long time.”

    Don’t you find her voice incredibly grating, I asked. “We wouldn’t be chatting,” he replied.

    Aren’t men strange? Women think they want cleavage and heels, but actually what they want is tightly buttoned up, completely square, but with a hint of promise glinting behind the specs. [/i:acda8707aa]
  102. avatar Chi-Lite
    Wee Michelle McIlveen.

    Say no more
  103. avatar T Entertainment
    C'mon Marty, you really secretly hanker for a secular-minded, middle class, Methody-educated, pro-choice prod. Called Gillian. Deny it not.
  104. avatar Chi-Lite
    Nono.

    For, as we all know, girls of the type that you have just described are all dirty wee whores. :P
  105. avatar trepanner
    If we start giving full human rights to foeti, next we'll have to give them to the gays, and then the terrorists will have won.
  106. avatar T Entertainment
    Placards out, the freedom haters are in town!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7605600.stm


    I suspect this may be sabotaged by a shadowy group covertly representing the interests of Easyjet and Stenaline shareholders.
  107. avatar PhatBob
    [quote:f92f5175c4="T Entertainment"]I suspect this may be sabotaged by a shadowy group covertly representing the interests of Easyjet and Stenaline shareholders.[/quote:f92f5175c4]

    :lol: :lol: :lol:
  108. avatar churchwarden
    [img:9e2f3d62f0]http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/05421086c918c5bbd667ccccd26ac858f8b0f952_m.jpg[/img:9e2f3d62f0]
  109. avatar flackmeister
    That is one of the finest posters I have ever seen.

    Please do tell, where did you get it?

    Brilliant.

    Vladimir Rootin Tootin Putin.
  110. avatar churchwarden
    it was on the found image site:
    [img]http://ffffound.com/[/img]
  111. avatar The Ronster
    Who'd have thought Matt Damon had such a handle on things. I guess that's unfair of me - I actually really like the guy, but I'm always surprised when actors openly have a go at politicians.

    Still, well said that man.

    [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anxkrm9uEJk]Matt on Sarah Palin[/url]
  112. avatar The Grace Jones
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/17/anonymous_hacks_sarah_palin/

    ...
  113. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    The "hack" (it's most likely nothing of the sort) apparently arose from guessing the answer to Palin's "secret question", which was apparently "what is your Zip Code?".

    That's not just too stupid for public office, that's borderline too stupid to live.
  114. avatar fastfude
    DIDDY IS SCARED! DIDDY IS SCARED! [url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70wGnx_lZio]DIDDY IS SCARED![/url]
  115. avatar The enfant terrible
    [quote:b6bdd7e157="fastfude"]DIDDY IS SCARED! DIDDY IS SCARED! [url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70wGnx_lZio]DIDDY IS SCARED![/url][/quote:b6bdd7e157]

    I actually like him a wee bit after that. She's great at not answering questions isn't she. I read an interview with the independent candidate she stood against when running for the governorship of Alaska and he said words to that effect too. She didn't know half the answers to questions in debates but she knew how to give an answer that the public would suck up.

    Here's Matt Damon's take on her

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk
  116. avatar T Entertainment
    Tonight's debate:


    http://www.theonion.com/content/point/point_counterpoint_gov_palin_has
  117. avatar fastfude
    [quote:bb44ab4e2c="The enfant terrible"]Here's Matt Damon's take on her

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk[/quote:bb44ab4e2c]
    [url=http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461]And here is that Disney movie[/url]!
  118. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    [img:a74c1b4c5a]http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/resources/2008/03/obamacampaignholyshit.jpg[/img:a74c1b4c5a]
  119. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    Hehe, I have no doubt that Meghan McCain has a decent taste in music but she should really listen to ALL the lyrics...

    http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/node/146172

    [quote:33bd7c69ec="pitchfork"]OK, let me get this straight. For a blog post about her father's debate with Democratic Presidential Candidate Barack Obama on Friday night-- a debate that centered a whole lot around our country's recent economic catastrophe-- the "Song of the Day" was Stereolab's "Ping Pong"?! Really?![/quote:33bd7c69ec]

    [quote:33bd7c69ec="Ping Pong - Stereolab"]it's alright right 'cos the historical pattern has shown
    how the economical cycle tends to revolve
    in a round of decades three stages stand out in a loop
    a slump and war then peel back to square one and back for more

    bigger slump and bigger wars and a smaller recovery
    huger slump and greater wars and a shallower recovery

    you see the recovery always comes 'round again
    there's nothing to worry for things will look after themselves
    it's alright recovery always comes 'round again
    there's nothing to worry if things can only get better

    there's only millions that lose their jobs and homes and sometimes accents
    there's only millions that die in their bloody wars, it's alright

    it's only their lives and the lives of their next of kin that they are losing
    it's only their lives and the lives of their next of kin that they are losing

    it's alright 'cos the historical pattern has shown
    how the economical cycle tends to revolve
    in a round of decades three stages stand out in a loop
    a slump and war then peel back to square one and back for more

    bigger slump and bigger wars and a smaller recovery
    huger slump and greater wars and a shallower recovery

    don't worry be happy things will get better naturally
    don't worry shut up sit down go with it and be happy[/quote:33bd7c69ec]
  120. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    [img:a521917cf8]http://www.adennak.com/archives/palinflow.gif[/img:a521917cf8]

    I'm loving this shit.
  121. avatar T Entertainment
    Every time she says 'you betcha!', I feel like my teeth have just clamped down on tinfoil...
  122. avatar tinpot anto
    You know if someone were to walk into the offices of CITIBANK with a ghetto blaster playing "Where is My Mind?" it would actually be EXACTLY LIKE the end of Fight Club RIGHT NOW.
  123. avatar rentaghost
    How can anyone, and I mean A.N.Y.O.N.E, fail to come up with the name of a single newspaper?
  124. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [url]http://isbarackobamamuslin.com/[/url]
  125. avatar That Man Fanjo
    This didn't make me laugh.

    [url]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgQ4VMPfyY&feature=user[/url]
  126. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    http://www.palinaspresident.com/

    love this.
  127. avatar The enfant terrible
    Have any of you seen Tina Fey do Palin on SNL. It's pretty funny and spot on:

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gX9uPfCqQBE
  128. avatar rentaghost
    quizzity quiz!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/quiz/2008/oct/21/sarah-palin-tin-fey-quotes
  129. avatar T Entertainment
    My friends, my friends, Grampa McCain is crashing and burning completely now.
    Apparently the only thing which can save him is a terrorist attack. That'll give the conspiracy freaks a field day if it happens.
  130. avatar rentaghost
    Oh T-ent, you're such a[i:1f4be929a6] Maverick[/i:1f4be929a6]

    Apparently he is running out of money now as well. he's about $100m shy of Obama on the campaign funds front.
  131. avatar tinpot anto
    After Cozy Powell came out for O'Bama (if he did that he would sway a lot of the racist Irish lobby I reckon) there was only one way this race was gonna go!
  132. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Serious:

    http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0

    (I sincerely apologise for the language herein. It's truly grotesque in places)

    Not Serious:

    http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9V_aOCga0
  133. avatar rentaghost
    [img:195cace36c]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/10/22/pa5.jpg[/img:195cace36c]

    Can anyone tell me if the hand signal she is giving here is [i:195cace36c]really[/i:195cace36c] the ASL signal for 'I love you'? Or is David Icke starting to make sense all of a sudden?


    I wish someone would take me out and buy me £92,000 worth of clothes. :/

    Before and after

    [img:195cace36c]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/red/blue_pics/2008/10/22/sp300x180.jpg[/img:195cace36c]
  134. avatar tinpot anto
    [img:a8d8ab22a2]http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/10/20/128690261930969895.jpg[/img:a8d8ab22a2]
  135. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    If she could arrange for the state to pay for glorified family holidays in a quasi-fraudulent fashion, it's a wonder she couldn't buy the clothes herself.

    She is Sammy Wilson in a dress.
  136. avatar rentaghost
    "I can see Scotland from my House"
  137. avatar my-angel-rocks
    Obama gives us his seal of approval: [url]http://fastfude.wecanbelievein.com/[/url]
  138. avatar theavenue
    These are the people who should not be allowed to vote;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIuVxAQhdJo
  139. avatar The Grace Jones
    Have any of y'all followed the (mentally horrifying) unfolding saga of the "Backwards B" thing??
  140. avatar The enfant terrible
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LBrDzZCOQtI

    Winner revealed early
  141. avatar Tiocfaidh Ar La
    FORMER US Secretary of State Colin Powell last night reassured white voters that Barak Obama's Oval Office will not be filled with the thick smoke of ganja cigarettes.
    The retired four star general insisted Obama could also be trusted not to steal anything from the executive mansion.
    Powell's intervention is expected to reassure middle America that Obama has a strong father figure in his life who will try to get down to the White House at least every other weekend.
    The former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff said: "Obama's a good boy. He ain't gonna steal nothin' from no Oval Office. Yessir.
    "I told him, 'you smoke them reefer cigarettes and the police is gonna have a fine time with you. A fine time'.
    "I said, 'I don't wanna see you sittin' on the steps of no White House, gettin' toasted and hollerin' at all them young women. I will give you a righteous ass whuppin'. You can count on that'."
    Republican John McCain said he respected the decision, adding that Powell was a wise man who had been carrying his golf clubs for more than 25 years.
    But a 59 year-old white voter from Kentucky, said: "How'd that niggra git to be a general anyhow?"
    :wink:
    And Republican Sarah Palin warned white women they will soon become Barak Obama's beeatches.
    Palin said Obama had a secret plan to 'get him some sweet, vanilla ass and then knock dose bitches up, one by one'.
    She told a rally in North Carolina: "He wants to fill this great nation with his coffee coloured babies and then, while you are nursing his mutant seed, he will use your porch for selling crack to whores. Black whores."
    Palin also accused Obama of once being in the same room as a man who had watched the first half of the dangerously bad domestic terror movie Arlington Road.
    Governor Palin said: "How much did Mr Obama learn from that experience? Is he already poring over the blueprints of your local library?
    "And if he is willing to breathe the same air as someone who condones terrorism, how long before Jeff Bridges is blamed for blowing up that library, even though it was actually Tim Robbins and John Cusack's sister?
    "Instead of indulging in long, slow French kisses with one of the Cusacks, we must do all we can to protect Jeff Bridges and make sure Tim Robbins faces the ultimate penalty."
    She added: "It's a shame because Tim Robbins was really good in The Shawshank Redemption. And he was innocent in that one - I think."
  142. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    Ahem, anyway...

    [URL]http://politsk.blogspot.com/2008/09/sarah_13.html[/URL]
  143. avatar frajam
    I hear Barack Obama's Grandmother dies a few hours ago there.

    I see the sympathy votes coming on here :wink:
  144. avatar beamer933
    i can guarantee over 70% of americans and 90% of people outside america don't know enough about either candidate to give a genuinely smart vote. i dont know shit about it so im not even gonna touch it.
  145. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    As I say, anything but Palin.

    Obama might have some shit policy, but he is still better than that bigoted, ultra-conservative, christian fundamentalist crazy woman.
  146. avatar Danny Lynch
    well said that man!
  147. avatar Stevie Mac
    Looks like Obama has won Pennsylvania - votes coming in fast!
  148. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    Can't help ad being optimistic about the margin gained by Obama so far. But have a bad feeling at the back of my mind.
  149. avatar ConorKane
    Same thing happened with Kerry in 04, still a while to go yet!
  150. avatar Stevie Mac
    Obama just taken Ohio. No Republican has ever won without it.
  151. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Watching the election reaction on Rapture Ready has been comedy gold. Sheer, unadulterated gold.
  152. avatar xfirefishx
    I'm loving the BBC coverage on this. Jonathan Dimbleby is such a bumbling, cute little man.

    Also the Republician former ambassador (I think) is great craic. He's really in fine fighting form.

    I'm also interested in the results of course.
  153. avatar Amz
    [quote:120142c385="xfirefishx"]I'm loving the BBC coverage on this. Jonathan Dimbleby is such a bumbling, cute little man.
    [/quote:120142c385]

    Agreed. Love him!

    Also quite enjoyed the moment John Bolton asked for the reporter in.. hum.. can't remember, to be fired. Woke me up momentarily while my eyes failed me...


    Obama 207 - McCain 141

    Think I'm gonna have to leave it at this and assume when i wake up for work, and curse myself for staying up, that Obama will be passed the 270 mark comfortably.

    Oh but now I think i need to stay up for California which should come through soon. I keep moving the bar on meself...
  154. avatar rl-vl
    Its 207 - 135 on CNN!
    Maybe BBC made a mistakey.
  155. avatar Amz
    [quote:b6b9d102ef="rl-vl"]Its 207 - 135 on CNN!
    Maybe BBC made a mistakey.[/quote:b6b9d102ef]

    Still sitting at 141 for McCain...142 now on ITV....
  156. avatar rl-vl
    I'm sticking with thon Americans for my results!
  157. avatar rl-vl
    3 minutes until a load more polling stations close!
  158. avatar Amz
    [quote:e1a5bff215="rl-vl"]I'm sticking with thon Americans for my results![/quote:e1a5bff215]

    I've got a cloths hanger out the back of me tv, so no CNN for me....

    Right - please god have the results quickly. 3 mins to close... i have gotta go to bed, but i'm hooked.
  159. avatar xfirefishx
    The BBC take their results from US channel ABC and the Associated Press. Different channels project different results at different times.

    And that was Rajesh M who he wanted to be fired. Admittedly he was saying stupid stuff but yes, I laughed.
  160. avatar rl-vl
    I'm watching CNN live, which is streaming.
    Obama just got Virginia too apparently.

    Electrobama!
  161. avatar Amz
    Done... dusted... I'm away to bed....
  162. avatar Stevie Mac
    It's all over, CA, OR just got called - President elect Obama!

    No-one watching The Daily Show special? Stephen Colbert is fake beside himself
  163. avatar rl-vl
    Eleeeeeeeeectrobama BAM!
  164. avatar Stevie Mac
    majorly tired, but what the hell i've stayed up this late, obama's speech as president elect is on soon.
  165. avatar Per
    that Gore Vidal interview was just about the best thing i've ever seen
  166. avatar Lap Dog Shuffle
    Eyo, just back from a dander across Manhattan, people going nuts on the streets. fun times.
  167. avatar 10rapid
    the times square punters on sky now are mental.

    not in a good way!
  168. avatar ConorKane
    I go to University in Chicago and its crazy on campus here! I got offered tickets to Grant Park but I had to work.
  169. avatar trepanner
    [img:dc32cc5065]http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6524/1213963532753sk6.jpg[/img:dc32cc5065]
  170. avatar tinpot anto
    It's easy to be cynical, but Jesse Jackson weeping openly for the people he knew who died for civil rights made me go a big rubbery one too.

    Not a bad oul speech either.
  171. avatar daveshorty
    YESSSSSSS!!!
  172. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    I realise this is possibly a cynical thing to say, but Obama's win has pissed off all the right people to a massive extent that I can't conclude it's anything but a good thing. Just knowing Rupert Murdoch, Anne Coulter &c. are properly annoyed at proceedings gives my a proper, actual ready-brek glow. It's been a long time coming, and I aim to fully enjoy it. I'd imagine Speak youre Branes and FSTDT are going to make good reading for at least a week, too.

    Schadenfreude is very much the breakfast of choice in the Muncher household.
  173. avatar remaderyan
    Thank Feck that he won and not that other hillbilly circus.

    I heard a speach from palin, yesterday, 'yeah, uhm, thats a really cool thing about america'...referring to the fact that alaska was quite a distance from washington.

    I'm just quite releaved. So getting out of iraq then?
  174. avatar rentaghost
    [quote:90e5ffdba6="Per"]that Gore Vidal interview was just about the best thing i've ever seen[/quote:90e5ffdba6]

    unbelievable. I was cringing under my pillow by the end of it.
  175. avatar DontPetABurningDog
    Vidal is such a fuckin' dude. Clearly pure mental, but utterly pinpoint.
  176. avatar smittennn
    i am astonished at the result.
    i had been laid low by 8 years of BUSH and the hate that rolled off Americans' tongues in documentaries and in person during visits. i know to be suspicious of polls as BUSH had been down in them before. i did not dare experience or express OBAMA'S mantra of HOPE as i saw it extinguished in the past.
    I am not a party political Yet did you see the grace of McCain's concession speech. I have grown to be weary of my emotional respnses to speeches, they do not feel as free as my response to music (dance...) McCain expressed respect and humility in the wake of the ballot.

    Perhaps We Can Change.
    (i add)
    i am not signing up here as a party political
    i just feel a release of tension this morning.
    i may put it back in me by the time my workshift starts this afternoon-i hope not.
    i am trying to draw a line and say from this point forward for the foreseeable future i use this point in time to be more Positive about life...(dance)
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  177. avatar tenrabbits
    [img:15c4f5ee47]http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t291/smbrinich/Humor/election-outcome.jpg[/img:15c4f5ee47]

    Anyone got any links to the Vidal interview - I'd love to hear it..
  178. avatar rentaghost
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k2L8iUHZ2sY

    I think this might be it
  179. avatar the_doctor199
    [quote:7349d654f3="tenrabbits"]Anyone got any links to the Vidal interview - I'd love to hear it..[/quote:7349d654f3]

    Sound isnt too great but it'll do.. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k2L8iUHZ2sY

    Edit: I was too slow!
  180. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:afbcf57478="xfirefishx"]And that was Rajesh M who he wanted to be fired. Admittedly he was saying stupid stuff but yes, I laughed.[/quote:afbcf57478]

    I liked the irony that Bolton who was arguing with anyone who looked at him funny, was calling for someone to be fired for "arguing". He such a tit.
  181. avatar rentaghost
    [img:004ee325a0]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3214/2809373683_f15734a35b_o.gif[/img:004ee325a0]
  182. avatar theavenue
    Watched it live here in Canada, and people were crazy here too.
  183. avatar POSITIVExYOUTH
    And not surprising. The results were actually very surprising for some states, some that went to Obama are states regarded as Republican strongholds or, to put it in a cynical way and semplistic way, wouldn't have voted for a black candidate.
    Maybe Obama itself won't make much of a difference, but most certainly the election results themselves seem to demonstrate that certain attitudes people have in the US are changing.

    But we'll have to see what Obama will do. But if these are the premises, then perhaps the 'Change, we can' thing won't be just a slogan.
  184. avatar Stevie Mac
    [quote:4c49a061fe="my-angel-rocks"][quote:4c49a061fe="xfirefishx"]And that was Rajesh M who he wanted to be fired. Admittedly he was saying stupid stuff but yes, I laughed.[/quote:4c49a061fe]

    I liked the irony that Bolton who was arguing with anyone who looked at him funny, was calling for someone to be fired for "arguing". He such a tit.[/quote:4c49a061fe]

    That bit cracked me up. He wasn't arguing per se, yer man just didn't want to face reality. It went something like this:

    Rajesh: So what's your reaction right now?
    Republican: Oh well, it's not too good right now, but we'll have to wait and see.
    Rajesh: Nah but really, it's over isn't it? Virginia & Ohio have just been called, how can McCain win now?
    Republican: Well it's not over until all the votes are in!
    Rajesh: Seriously though, how can he win now?

    etc etc

    I think Bolton actually accused him of [i:4c49a061fe]bullying[/i:4c49a061fe]. So apparently you're well entitled to your opinion as a pundit, even when it's completely at odds with established fact.
  185. avatar Amz
    [quote:77f547f27c="Stevie Mac"][quote:77f547f27c="my-angel-rocks"][quote:77f547f27c="xfirefishx"]And that was Rajesh M who he wanted to be fired. Admittedly he was saying stupid stuff but yes, I laughed.[/quote:77f547f27c]

    I liked the irony that Bolton who was arguing with anyone who looked at him funny, was calling for someone to be fired for "arguing". He such a tit.[/quote:77f547f27c]

    That bit cracked me up. He wasn't arguing per se, yer man just didn't want to face reality. It went something like this:

    Rajesh: So what's your reaction right now?
    Republican: Oh well, it's not too good right now, but we'll have to wait and see.
    Rajesh: Nah but really, it's over isn't it? Virginia & Ohio have just been called, how can McCain win now?
    Republican: Well it's not over until all the votes are in!
    Rajesh: Seriously though, how can he win now?

    etc etc

    I think Bolton actually accused him of [i:77f547f27c]bullying[/i:77f547f27c]. So apparently you're well entitled to your opinion as a pundit, even when it's completely at odds with established fact.[/quote:77f547f27c]

    Well.. Like xfirefishx was saying, "he was saying stupid stuff".

    Rajesh clearly didn't know the state history, and was bluffing to the max and caught out. He was right that on presidential elections the state had voted Republican for years, but within the state, there seemed to be a strong democratic vote. Can anybody remember which state it was???
    I dont know the ins and outs (i can't even remember the state) - nor did Rajesh, which lead to a kinda stand-off. It made me laugh...

    Boltons argument back in the studio was that Rajesh wasn't being impartial which was true in a way. I dont think you can argue any coverage was unbiased, but feck it... the right out come.
  186. avatar xfirefishx
    It was Colarado, which is considered a swing-state and has had a good amount of Democratic representation in federal politics over the years so yeah poor wee Rajesh didn't know his history.

    But yeah, it is such an exciting outcome. I actually didn't believe it would happen. Yay for being proved wrong.
  187. avatar Dirty Stevie Grizz
    [quote:81f2fe8673][img:81f2fe8673]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3214/2809373683_f15734a35b_o.gif[/img:81f2fe8673][/quote:81f2fe8673]

    I was listening to "Silly Love Songs" by Paul McCartney when I first seen that there. It proved and awesome combo!

    I urge everyone to try it!

    :lol:
  188. avatar RabbBennett
    I'm so glad that the U.S.A have voted to get that fool out, but what if the republicans had put Powell up for the election would there have been a different outcome, and, is this such a big strike for civil rights? ......
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  189. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:f3b48158d3="Amz"]Rajesh clearly didn't know the state history[/quote:f3b48158d3]

    I thought the "argument" was that Rajesh was saying that in the last 10 elections Colorado had voted for a Republican 9 times. The Republican guy was saying that he didn't know his history because before that they voted for a lot of democrats.

    It seemed to me that Rajesh was trying to limit it to the last 40 years because is it overly useful statistically to use anything more than that? The overlap between the voters in the 50s and 60s and voters today is quite small, society has changed a lot since then, as have the parties.

    The republican guy wanted to try to show that it wasn't such a loss if Colorado went to the democrats.

    Thats what I got out of it.
    That and John "Are you a member of the communist party?" Bolton is still a dick.
  190. avatar Amz
    I got the impression Rajesh was only talking about Presidential elections, but the other guy was talking about Colarados political voting in general, including state and local, and that included a seemingly more Democratic leaning...Therefore, not a through and through republican state, as Rajesh was trying to say it was a big loss for the Republicans, seeing in the last x amount of years, it went to the Republicans.

    (i'm not gonna pretend I know the US system inside out, but basically i got the impression that on the ground they seemed to vote Democrate, but when it actually came to the big shot, they ultimately voted Republican - guess thats why it was a swing state)
  191. avatar Jimmy Seagus
    [i:fb05a66972]I think Bolton actually accused him of bullying.[/i:fb05a66972]

    Fuck me.

    Pot.
    Kettle.
    African-American.

    Bolton is subhuman neo-Con scum. A proper bastard and Bush's UN Rottweiler.
    Hopefully he'll have to go back to scaring small children for a living now.
  192. avatar fastfude
    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28784

    Happier, simpler times.

    I for one am glad we now live in a futuristic utopia full of kittens, unicorns and hovershoes!
  193. avatar tinpot anto
    The only thing not predicted with horrific, spine-chilling accuracy by that piece was the atrocious mutilation of the english language he would also champion.

    [quote:e234e0d416]"We as a people must stand united, banding together to tear this nation in two," Bush said. "Much work lies ahead of us: The gap between the rich and the poor may be wide, be there's much more widening left to do. We must squander our nation's hard-won budget surplus on tax breaks for the wealthiest 15 percent. And, on the foreign front, we must find an enemy and defeat it." [/quote:e234e0d416]