1. avatar drive by fader
    Hey y'all,

    In association with Stiff Kitten Live, Urban Outfitters present to you a feast of local music with...

    [b:5dce757414]Panama Kings, Two Door Cinema Club + Cutaways[/b:5dce757414]

    Entrance is free and there will be complimentary drinks for one and all in attendance! Too good to be true? Well it sure is good and it sure is true so...come along!

    [url]http://www.myspace.com/urbanoutfittersbelfast[/url]
    [url]http://www.myspace.com/thestiffkittenclub[/url]
    [url]http://www.myspace.com/panamakings[/url]
    [url]http://www.myspace.com/twodoorcinemaclub[/url]
    [url]http://www.myspace.com/cutaways[/url]

    [img:5dce757414]http://a750.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/60/m_473f8e2eb61c5805c07151f639ea576d.jpg[/img:5dce757414]
  2. avatar drive by fader
    Now with a more explanatory title...
  3. avatar drive by fader
    Now with a BUMP!
  4. avatar Staralfur
    i'm confused - Is Mark Ronson going to be there, strutting about in ironic shoes or something?
  5. avatar drive by fader
    Yes?
  6. avatar Elms
    Doors at 6pm with a free bar, first band on at 6.30pm :)
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  7. avatar goodonpaper
    No Ronson right after, but TwoStep in The Limelight welcomes all.

    http://fastfude.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27439&highlight=
  8. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Thursday night. Free in, free bar, all welcome!
  9. avatar AngelaMOK
    Free bar is my favourite kind of bar.
  10. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Sure you couldn't be bad to it.
  11. avatar hoaxdrummer
    Nice line-up, should be a great night!
  12. avatar Elms
    Doors at 6pm with a free bar, first band on at 6.30pm :)
  13. avatar xfirefishx
    Do you have to RSVP or anything to get on a list to get in or can anyone go along?
  14. avatar Elms
    Its open to everyone, you don't need to rsvp or anything. Bring some friends!
  15. avatar Recycled Alien
    Ah. Hadn't realised it was an early evening event. I'm sorry I'll have to miss it.

    Disappointed. It's not the free bar, it's just that I would have fitted in so well with the urban fashionistas... :D
  16. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Tonight! Booze and Bands for free. Doors at 6pm.

    I'd say bands will be:

    Cutaways - 630pm
    Two Door - 715pm
    Panama Kings - 8pm
  17. avatar JTM
    *burp*

    Excellent stuff. All 3 bands sounded killer, and I was more than happy with my t-shirt. And the free beerzorz. Thankyou Bands, Thankyou Urban Outfitters.
  18. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    You are very welcome.
  19. avatar hoaxdrummer
    Who'd of thought a gig in a clothes shop...

    It was awesome.

    Really enjoyed all 3 bands - hadn't seen Panama Kings before... blew me away.

    Excellent effort by all involved!
  20. avatar the*optimist
    Yeh this was undeniably hip. Mon Belfast for being the best place in the worlds for gigs and bands!
  21. avatar JTM
    [quote:6475cd2c15="the*optimist"]Yeh this was undeniably hip. Mon Belfast for being the best place in the worlds for gigs and bands![/quote:6475cd2c15]

    I wouldn't go that far, but this was definitely one of the coolest things I have ever seen. Stick it up ye, Camden.
  22. avatar the*optimist
    Haa, Indeed, maybe I am a litte too gay for Belfast, but the quality level is pretty high right now.
  23. avatar Strong Reaction
    Shame that due to the layout it was nearly impossible to move around.
  24. avatar xfirefishx
    yeah, there were a lot of people blocking the stairs to get up but if you asked them to move, they did :P
    it was an interesting idea. only caught cutaways - they were good fun actually - and the beginning of two door cinema club but yeah, was pretty good.

    good marketing ploy though for urban outfitters. i have never in my life bought anything from that shop, nor even wanted to and i ended up buying a nice frilly overpriced item!

    also, guys on bar - dont tell people having their 2nd drink not to be greedy and drink too much. its a free bar and its basically a glass of undiluted cordial so calm down.
  25. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Lou, i think the bar guys were more worried about the low levels of alcohol available.

    The bottleneck where the band were setup was a bit of a pain, but it'll be sorted for the next one.
  26. avatar Desus
    It was a wee bit strange. I felt old.

    Great for the bands I think though, to play to a crowd that might otherwise not see them. And its amazing what you'll drink if its free!! Any chance we could get a Backs tap in next time Joe? :wink:
  27. avatar Loopy Lu
    I had apprehension's about this gig - wasn't sure I could hack all the 'cool kids' not being one of them you see, but my arm was twisted. Not a bad night but totally hear Desus on the old factor - Im a 23yr old who looks 18 ok lets be real Im actually still mistaken for 16, but I felt like a complete geriatric. I was unaware that the dress code for both male and female was check shirt and winkle picker (the most pointiest shoes) you can get your hands on or should I say feet in!!

    Bands sounded great, but there was an issue like stated with people blocking the stairs I mean a bit of common sense tells you to move up your obviously still going to be able to see. Maybe next time have the bands situated on the lower mezzanine and restrict crowd to the ground floor for the performances?
  28. avatar JTM
    I was the only person, apart from the mum of one of the band members, who was not ID'd all night. And that included Rocky O'Reilly. Yeah, I felt old, but also a lot cooler for it. :p

    Next time I'll be picking my spot at the bar, but making folks move downstairs as well as upstairs would be handy.
  29. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:d9522e7763="JTM"][quote:d9522e7763="the*optimist"]Yeh this was undeniably hip. Mon Belfast for being the best place in the worlds for gigs and bands![/quote:d9522e7763]

    I wouldn't go that far, but this was definitely one of the coolest things I have ever seen. Stick it up ye, Camden.[/quote:d9522e7763]

    I'm assuming that this is sarcasm. On both counts.

    Because if it's not, it just shows what a complete backwater this hole of a country is, and how little future we can hope to have.
  30. avatar thesacredhearts
    [quote:eb6039a36a="Desus"]It was a wee bit strange. I felt old.

    Great for the bands I think though, to play to a crowd that might otherwise not see them. And its amazing what you'll drink if its free!! Any chance we could get a Backs tap in next time Joe? :wink:[/quote:eb6039a36a]

    But dee, you are old.
  31. avatar Desus
    [quote:6dc2ca2cd9="thesacredhearts"][quote:6dc2ca2cd9="Desus"]It was a wee bit strange. I felt old.

    Great for the bands I think though, to play to a crowd that might otherwise not see them. And its amazing what you'll drink if its free!! Any chance we could get a Backs tap in next time Joe? :wink:[/quote:6dc2ca2cd9]

    But dee, you are old.[/quote:6dc2ca2cd9]

    I got fucking ID'd!!

    I was bloody delighted!
  32. avatar Loopy Lu
    Flipping heck maybe I don't look as young as thought..appears everyone was ID's except for me :shock:
  33. avatar colin
    I didn't get ID-ed, but I was told, in a rather curt and aggressive tone, I wasn't allowed to get a drink for my friend, because "he might be 12".

    I only really went for the free beers, but ended up quite enjoying the Panama Kings.
  34. avatar thesacredhearts
    [quote:a6ad9e7fe9="Desus"][quote:a6ad9e7fe9="thesacredhearts"][quote:a6ad9e7fe9="Desus"]It was a wee bit strange. I felt old.

    Great for the bands I think though, to play to a crowd that might otherwise not see them. And its amazing what you'll drink if its free!! Any chance we could get a Backs tap in next time Joe? :wink:[/quote:a6ad9e7fe9]

    But dee, you are old.[/quote:a6ad9e7fe9]

    I got fucking ID'd!!

    I was bloody delighted![/quote:a6ad9e7fe9]

    Oh so you'll take the piss out of me in the pav, but be delighted when it happens to you!
  35. avatar JTM
    [quote:0415102b91="Steven Dedalus"][quote:0415102b91="JTM"][quote:0415102b91="the*optimist"]Yeh this was undeniably hip. Mon Belfast for being the best place in the worlds for gigs and bands![/quote:0415102b91]

    I wouldn't go that far, but this was definitely one of the coolest things I have ever seen. Stick it up ye, Camden.[/quote:0415102b91]

    I'm assuming that this is sarcasm. On both counts.

    Because if it's not, it just shows what a complete backwater this hole of a country is, and how little future we can hope to have.[/quote:0415102b91]

    No it wasn't sarcasm. All right, I'd guess there was a tongue-in-cheek tone intended that didn't come across. OK so I'd rather not be surrounded by folks dressed like f*cking adverts for Top Shop at a gig,but honestly I enjoyed this, even if I felt and looked like the hobo who just came in for free booze. Belfast is never going to be London, it's never going to even be as quarter as "cool" as Camden, but I f*cking hate Camden. There was a good buzz off that night, the bands got a buzz out of it, and it got people who normally don't go or can't go to gigs to turn up.
    Even if there's a very obvious marketing excercise, instore gigs are something positive. It's a step in a direction, even if it's not maybe fully the right one.
    --
    I saw that whole "He could be 26 he could be 12 thing" as well. To be fair those guys are working in a clothes store, not a bar.
  36. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:2b895e3179="JTM"]


    OK so I'd rather not be surrounded by folks dressed like f*cking adverts for Top Shop at a gig,but honestly I enjoyed this, even if I felt and looked like the hobo who just came in for free booze. Belfast is never going to be London, it's never going to even be as quarter as "cool" as Camden, but I f*cking hate Camden. There was a good buzz off that night, the bands got a buzz out of it, and it got people who normally don't go or can't go to gigs to turn up.
    [/quote:2b895e3179]

    Fair enough, sir. You've ably defended yourself from my initial outrage.

    It's just that, for a second, I was worried that there was some consensus that having a couple of fasionista bands playing in a corporate retail outlet somehow made Belfast more 'rad' than London.

    And maybe this is an unpopular opinion but

    [quote:2b895e3179] people who normally don't go or can't go to gigs to turn up.
    [/quote:2b895e3179]

    are generally, in my experience, the kind of people you wouldn't want at gigs. Especially considering it was the lure of a clothing store that made them go.

    My point: London is justifyably crucified on a dialy basis for being a magnet attracting vacuous, hollow, uber-trendy, hipster garbage, and for being as relevant as a bag of air.

    Is that what we want to aspire to in 'our wee country'?

    Apologies if this comes accross as a hate filled rant directed at London, Belfast, Northern Ireland, the public, corporate retailers pretending to be 'indie' or 'alt', and people pretending they're cool.

    But it is, and if it offends you, then I have hit my target, ball-begs.
  37. avatar the*optimist
    [quote:39e66bb327="Steven Dedalus"][quote:39e66bb327="JTM"][quote:39e66bb327="the*optimist"]Yeh this was undeniably hip. Mon Belfast for being the best place in the worlds for gigs and bands![/quote:39e66bb327]

    I wouldn't go that far, but this was definitely one of the coolest things I have ever seen. Stick it up ye, Camden.[/quote:39e66bb327]

    I'm assuming that this is sarcasm. On both counts.

    Because if it's not, it just shows what a complete backwater this hole of a country is, and how little future we can hope to have.[/quote:39e66bb327]

    What are you on about?!! Its good news for the trendy young consumer and the bands aswell, EVEN the people who came to see the bands play as they didn't have to sit in a dank bar all night(or pay for drinks8) )

    It's good to see these sort of things happening over here helping out the talent.

    Also, who wouldn't you want to have at a gig?!! If they are digging the music then fair do's
  38. avatar Loopy Lu
    [/quote]Also, who wouldn't you want to have at a gig?!! If they are digging the music then fair do's[/quote]


    But the question is are these people really 'digging the music' or merely following a trend in the bid of being uber trendy and cool essentially just caught up in the moment....
  39. avatar JTM
    Steven, I agree completely and you have reminded me what an industry-driven shell I'm becoming, thanks for reminding me to have a soul.

    I hate that music is a commodity, I really do, but just for once last night I ignored the faux-hipness of it and was happy to think of it more as something mutually beneficial.
    Bands got to play to a wider audience (plus their loyal fans who were there in force) for free. I see both of these as good - UO got some more revenue and exposure. I am old and cynical enough to see it as a marketing exercise to some extent, and thus ignore that part, but young and enthusiastic enough not to care, and thus enjoy the tunes (and beer). The industry sell-out part of me was thinking of the synergy.

    Point about Belfast needing to aspire to be better than London - YES, agree totally. YES and more YES. Let's learn the lessons and get going.

    Maybe we can start to bypass the commercialisation aspect now we've tried it - I think the Trans Live Lounge gigs are a good example of free gigs that are more credible but still accessible to many.

    And maybe last night will inspire other shops to put more live music on (always good) - Metal set in Pushing Ink, anyone? I'd go to that...
  40. avatar Strong Reaction
    A hardcore gig in Primark?
  41. avatar JTM
    Let's not get overexcited.
  42. avatar Stu Make Say Think
    [quote:dcb72946d0="Steven Dedalus"] I'm assuming that this is sarcasm. On both counts.

    Because if it's not, it just shows what a complete backwater this hole of a country is, and how little future we can hope to have.[/quote:dcb72946d0]

    No, its miserable counter-productive comments like that that show why its taken so long for good things to start happening here. That gig might not be the 'coolest' thing to ever take place but it was a new thing for Belfast and for what its worth was really f'ucking good.

    Belfast, and its music scene, has a great future. It must be hard for all the morose old c'unts who frequent this site that cant say they contributed anything towards it.
  43. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:a6e3cef37c="JTM"]Steven, I agree completely and you have reminded me what an industry-driven shell I'm becoming, thanks for reminding me to have a soul.

    [/quote:a6e3cef37c]

    I'm just a tired old hack, really.

    [quote:a6e3cef37c]No, its miserable counter-productive comments like that that show why its taken so long for good things to start happening here. That gig might not be the 'coolest' thing to ever take place but it was a new thing for Belfast and for what its worth was really f'ucking good.

    Belfast, and its music scene, has a great future. It must be hard for all the morose old c'unts who frequent this site that cant say they contributed anything towards it. [/quote:a6e3cef37c]

    I'm not commenting on the 'goodness' of the gig or otherwise. I'm commenting on the fact that if people are getting excited about the fact that a gig happened in a shop ("Wow! You mean, a real shop! Now I've seen it all...") then there is something wrong with them.

    And as someone pointed out elsewhere, pointy shoe faddishness is not a positive thing, and contributes nothing to the overall wellbeing of music in Northern Ireland.

    It's a simple fact that indie 'music' is sort of fashionable at the moment, and hand in hand with that is the perfect combo of the right shirt, the tightest jeans, the best hair-cut, and the pointiest shoes. And when fashion moves on (in about 14 minutes), all this will be left behind, and many of these 'music fans' will never be seen at a gig ever again, in a clothes store or otherwise.

    If this is your idea of 'good things' then the future can only hold a world of surprises for you.
  44. avatar Stu Make Say Think
    [quote:c839ee0b2f="Steven Dedalus"] I'm not commenting on the 'goodness' of the gig or otherwise. I'm commenting on the fact that if people are getting excited about the fact that a gig happened in a shop ("Wow! You mean, a real shop! Now I've seen it all...") then there is something wrong with them.[/quote:c839ee0b2f]

    And what did you achieve by pointing this out? Fuck all. Why not focus some energy on pointing out the good in the things that are happening in Belfast?

    [quote:c839ee0b2f="Steven Dedalus"] And as someone pointed out elsewhere, pointy shoe faddishness is not a positive thing, and contributes nothing to the overall wellbeing of music in Northern Ireland. [/quote:c839ee0b2f]

    The irony is, the people who are continually derided for their choice of skinny jeans, pointy shoes and a general interest in what is 'fashionable' seem to be the only ones not concerned with having a go at other people for their appearance. So until speccy ginger-haired music writers of the world unite to proclaim you a stalwart of righteous disregard for fashion, maybe you should DRY YOUR EYES.

    Is it so wrong for young people to want to feel like they're a part of something? Would you rather they dressed smartly, watched skins and had a casual interest in indie music or were out on the street committing knife crime?

    Fuck me.
  45. avatar blonderedhead
    [quote:588666b657="Stu Make Say Think"]
    The irony is, the people who are continually derided for their choice of skinny jeans, pointy shoes and a general interest in what is 'fashionable' seem to be the only ones not concerned with having a go at other people for their appearance. So until speccy ginger-haired music writers of the world unite to proclaim you a stalwart of righteous disregard for fashion, maybe you should DRY YOUR EYES.

    Is it so wrong for young people to want to feel like they're a part of something? Would you rather they dressed smartly, watched skins and had a casual interest in indie music or were out on the street committing knife crime?

    Fuck me.[/quote:588666b657]

    Totally agree. Though get ready for the next fashion trend:

    [url]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2498210686_57d58be79d.jpg?v=0[/url]
  46. avatar T Entertainment
    "Would you rather they dressed smartly, watched skins and had a casual interest in indie music or were out on the street committing knife crime?"


    I like it. So if you're not simply wetting yourself on a message board over a gig in a pricey clothes shop (which I have no particularly strong feelings on either way), you're effectively promoting knife crime? :lol:

    Is there [i:41df6b26a6]anything[/i:41df6b26a6] Fastfude and its vile user base isn't to blame for?
  47. avatar my-angel-rocks
    I wish someone wouldask me to play in a clothes shop
  48. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    This gig was a success. Alot of people turned up, and watched the bands. People checked out the bands who wouldn't necessarily have heard of them otherwise.

    Again, it amazes how people on this board are negative about things like this, and put seemingly endless effort into perpetuating discussions like this one, while sitting on the fence and doing nothing.
  49. avatar rigsyATL
    to be fair joe, this thread isn't half as negative as i thought it would be.

    i think this gig was a great idea because of what joe says - people who wouldn't normally bother, getting forced (for want of a better word) into watching local bands.

    because they're the type of people who would probably be into said local bands (i.e cool 'scenester' kids who shop in urban outfitters and probably are into indie/alternative music in the first place) they end up getting into a local band scene they would have known nothing of otherwise.

    maybe they'll go see the bands at two step or the empire or whatver and be introduced to yet more local acts etc etc - it's a great way to promote local music in general outside of the places where everyone already knows all about it, if that makes sense.

    as an aside, a lot of the people who were at that gig ended up at sketchy afterwards and something interesting happened - i played panama kings at peak time (1am-ish) and there was a big cheer when it came on. the whole dancefloor (which was rammed, there was 800 people there) remained for the duration of the song.

    pretty cool for an unsigned band!
  50. avatar goodonpaper
    For what it's worth, quite a lot of the crowd got flyered on the way out and did indeed end up at TwoStep. Here's hoping that becomes a long-term interest!
  51. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Aye fair enough rigs, not that negative. But i don't think its necessary to pull these things to pieces.
  52. avatar rigsyATL
    i agree with you, for sure. just that on previous form i thought a gig in a tredny clothes shop full of people in tight trousers would make fastfude implode upon itself ;-)
  53. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    We're gonna have metal bands next time round.
  54. avatar the*optimist
    [quote:26789096e7]I'm not commenting on the 'goodness' of the gig or otherwise. I'm commenting on the fact that if people are getting excited about the fact that a gig happened in a shop ("Wow! You mean, a real shop! Now I've seen it all...") then there is something wrong with them.[/quote:26789096e7]

    What is your problem with a gig happening in a shop?! It's a bit of a change, it was exciting being so close to the bands you could feel their sweat and having everyone standing up at gig I find generally helps the vibe.


    [quote:26789096e7]It's a simple fact that indie 'music' is sort of fashionable at the moment, and hand in hand with that is the perfect combo of the right shirt, the tightest jeans, the best hair-cut, and the pointiest shoes. And when fashion moves on (in about 14 minutes), all this will be left behind, and many of these 'music fans' will never be seen at a gig ever again, in a clothes store or otherwise.
    [/quote:26789096e7]

    Every trend ends but nobody mentioned uprooting the Northern Irish Music Scene and building it's new foundations purely based on doing gigs in shops and taking adavantage of the fact that this kind of music is "in".

    It was a little bit outside of the box, it was a different experience for gig goer and band a-like and nobody got cheated, the bands played to a good crowd, the crowd got free booze and didnt have to pay to see the bands they like/love, HELL, even urban outfitters may have made some money, the only person who seems to have lost out here is you, because you didn't even bother your arse going to the gig, you just scratched it, wondered why it smells like wotsits and then managed to conjure up some ridiculous reason why you didn't like the sound of the gig "ohhh this won't be fashionable for long so I won't support it"

    Music isn't fashion, you don't have to wear skinny jeans to like indie music, you don't have to wear baggy jeans to like hip hop, cravats and polo necks for jazz etc..... and you really are being a patronising cunt to a load of people who you haven't met or spoken to. Your just assuming that because their CLOTHES may change with the fashion that their music taste will too.

    The hiliarious thing is that they don't even know that this discussion is happening, most people who go to gigs don't have an idea FastFude exists and thats all the better because we really would be in a backwards hole if everyone followed your lead.
    [/quote]
  55. avatar Loopy Lu
    Little wrong with a gig happening in a shop, yes it's a change, not sure I'm into feeling their sweat myself but each to their own. However is still comes across to me as more of a money making venture for said shop regardless and a gig in a shop is by no means revolutionary for Belfast or otherwise. Yes great that for once it was a gig somewhere differnt but was not as previously stated out of the box, surely if it was truely about the music and hopefully reaching out new ears something a bit more exciting could have been staged (e.g. it doesn't take long to find a nice green area just out of Belfast maybe for an acoustic set, even playing in the middle of corn market would have been a laugh). Instead playing in a shop I don't really think the bands command the attention of the audience entirely as people are distracted to shop/wear the most ridiculous merchandise they can find.

    As for the clothes issue - my observation from the night of the kids is the preoccupation with wanting to be 'cool' and to be seen as being so therefore viewing a gig at UO as the epitome of this. Indeed it is this preoccupation which I find sad as everyone then ends up looking like clones of one another. I know all it is, is that they are trying to express and display their indviduality (and believe me this is something I have struggled with myself) but that again is a trendy thing to do. Therefore the fashion comes into play instead of exploring and finding how best to express themselves for themselves and no one else a genre such as 'Indie' is taken and followed resulting in all individuality being lost and then pinning one sole categeory on themselves. :?
  56. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:ff245643d5]Why not focus some energy on pointing out the good in the things that are happening in Belfast? [/quote:ff245643d5]

    I do, frequently. As a regular gig goer, I'm very pleased to give credit where credit is due by both going to gigs, and then reviewing them, giving many local bands coverage they wouldn't normally have. I think that sort of counts.

    [quote:ff245643d5]So until speccy ginger-haired music writers of the world unite to proclaim you a stalwart of righteous disregard for fashion, maybe you should DRY YOUR EYES. [/quote:ff245643d5]

    I'd have said I was a speccy RED haired music hack, but that's just because that's what it said on the box.

    [quote:ff245643d5]Is it so wrong for young people to want to feel like they're a part of something? Would you rather they dressed smartly, watched skins and had a casual interest in indie music or were out on the street committing knife crime? [/quote:ff245643d5]

    It's great when 'young people' are into stuff. I just feel that a DIY scene where people are encouraged to be pro-active and make up interesting things is better than an advert for a chain of clothing stores, or a particular brand of beer.

    [quote:ff245643d5]This gig was a success. Alot of people turned up, and watched the bands. People checked out the bands who wouldn't necessarily have heard of them otherwise. [/quote:ff245643d5]

    Which I believe was the general point I was making. Regardless of the 'goodness' of the gig, I'm sure everyone had fun, and I ain't got a problem with that. Saying that it's the most amazing, avant-garde thing that has ever happened is pushing it a bit, though.

    [quote:ff245643d5]i think this gig was a great idea because of what joe says - people who wouldn't normally bother, getting forced (for want of a better word) into watching local bands.
    [/quote:ff245643d5]

    [quote:ff245643d5]maybe they'll go see the bands at two step or the empire or whatver and be introduced to yet more local acts etc etc - it's a great way to promote local music in general outside of the places where everyone already knows all about it, if that makes sense. [/quote:ff245643d5]

    I think 'forced' might be the right word...

    And whilst it would be great for the second point to come true, I do find it unlikely. It's short-term gain for long term pain.

    [quote:ff245643d5]as an aside, a lot of the people who were at that gig ended up at sketchy afterwards and something interesting happened - i played panama kings at peak time (1am-ish) and there was a big cheer when it came on. the whole dancefloor (which was rammed, there was 800 people there) remained for the duration of the song. [/quote:ff245643d5]

    It's always a great thing when this happens, and long may it continue. I remember a similar thing when my band scored a dancfloor hit in the clubs in the North-East of Scotland (I'm anticipating a collective gasp from the public on that revelation...)

    [quote:ff245643d5]What is your problem with a gig happening in a shop?! It's a bit of a change, it was exciting being so close to the bands you could feel their sweat and having everyone standing up at gig I find generally helps the vibe.
    [/quote:ff245643d5]

    I don't have a problem with a gig being in a shop. I have a problem when this is seen as being a genuinely revelatory experience. The single problem I have with this is that I'm suspicious as to the actual merits of stuff like this, but mainly concerned that people's expectations are astoundingly low. I've been to some amazing gigs in unusual locations, and hopefully this is the start of something, rather than the pinnacle of achievement for Northern Irish music.

    [quote:ff245643d5] the only person who seems to have lost out here is you, because you didn't even bother your arse going to the gig, you just scratched it, wondered why it smells like wotsits and then managed to conjure up some ridiculous reason why you didn't like the sound of the gig "ohhh this won't be fashionable for long so I won't support it"
    [/quote:ff245643d5]

    Well, considering I don't like Panama Kings or Two Door Cinema Club, and see Urban Outfitters as one of the most cynical marketing ventures of recent years, it would be a rather foolhardy gesture to go to the gig, wouldn't it?

    Plus, I probably wasn't dressed right for it.
  57. avatar hoaxdrummer
    Could it be that this thread has ran it's course?

    I think the gig was an excellent idea.. 3 great bands had some excellent exposure and people listened.

    I bought a cd.

    Maybe Urban Outfitters made some money..

    It was well organised, well attended and well played.

    I call for more of the same.
  58. avatar Stu Make Say Think
    [quote:57166775e3="T Entertainment"]"Would you rather they dressed smartly, watched skins and had a casual interest in indie music or were out on the street committing knife crime?"


    I like it. So if you're not simply wetting yourself on a message board over a gig in a pricey clothes shop (which I have no particularly strong feelings on either way), you're effectively promoting knife crime? :lol:

    Is there [i:57166775e3]anything[/i:57166775e3] Fastfude and its vile user base isn't to blame for?[/quote:57166775e3]

    Lets have a bit of fucking sense. I think I made my point pretty clear but for the record:

    All I'm saying is let's look at the bigger picture. Is there any harm at all in these people dressing the way they dress and going to the things they do? It affects absolutely no one but themselves yet they get continually ridiculed for doing so. God knows there are many other things they could be involved in to alleviate boredom..
  59. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:2690ef4a34]God knows there are many other things they could be involved in to alleviate boredom.. [/quote:2690ef4a34]

    What are they? A bunch of children? Sheep?

    Are you seriously saying that if they weren't into soul-less indie, they'd be out getting ASBOs?
  60. avatar boarsheadtaverncheapside
    Surely the whole thing is branding, which means the bands and the shop both get some glamour outta being with each other. They can then sell that glamour on to you or me once they've soaked their songs and t-shirts in it. A lot of people wanna buy glamour but you can't buy it on it's own, you need something to soak it up, and music isn't too precious to sell t-shirts and t-shirts aren't so meaningless that they can't sell music, and besides, someone oughta make a few squids outta all the work it takes to get a few decent songs together. There is just no space for idealism here.
  61. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    [quote:e2b5760a7d]I just feel that a DIY scene where people are encouraged to be pro-active and make up interesting things is better than an advert for a chain of clothing stores, or a particular brand of beer.[/quote:e2b5760a7d]

    I organised this show. I don't work for urban outfitters. It's an advert for Local talent, and UO's commitment to promoting new music (though i'm confident you're not aware of this).

    Whatever your opinions on the store are, a music fan knocking a company blowing budget on music promotion when they could be using it for a million other things is an idiot.

    And yes, i'm sure this thread has run its course.
  62. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:3f127ae8a7]I organised this show. I don't work for urban outfitters. [/quote:3f127ae8a7]

    I was aware of this, and I commend your efforts. You've done a Herculean amount of work in terms of bringing music to Belfast.

    [quote:3f127ae8a7]It's an advert for Local talent, and UO's commitment to promoting new music (though i'm confident you're not aware of this).
    [/quote:3f127ae8a7]

    So I should assume that their selling of knock-off Sonic Youth t-shirts, etc, to people who have never heard of Sonic Youth, and are possibly not aware that they are a band is 'cool'?

    Thank fuck for that, then.

    I look forward to the day they start selling Panama Kings t-shirts to people who will wear them with pride, and comment to each other, "'Panama Kings'? That would be a [i:3f127ae8a7]sweet[/i:3f127ae8a7] name for a band..."

    Edited for some rather poor spelling...
    Last edited on , 1 times in total.
  63. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Yeah, the sonic youth tshirts are overpriced. But it's no worse than what any other stores get away with. I don't see why they should be judged differently.

    I'm guessing that Sonic Youth haven't protested, nor are they complaining.

    What overpriced sonic youth tshirts have to do with UO's promotion of new music, i don't know.
  64. avatar Chi-Lite
    Seriously but, who gives a ballix?

    Is it just me or are people having really [i:13adf11ffe]weird[/i:13adf11ffe] arguments here these days?
  65. avatar Niall Harden
    you can talk. at least it's roughly about music, for once.
  66. avatar Chi-Lite
    Aye, some big load of oul ballix about music.

    What's the gripe here, some shop selling pearl jam t-shirts or something?

    Come on lads, sort it out. If you don't like it don't buy it. Sure pearl jam are a lot of w[b:a3939de49e][/b:a3939de49e]ank anyway
  67. avatar Niall Harden
    [url=http://www.urbanoutfitters.co.uk/invt/5213428371000&bklist=icat,6,shop,mens,mensclothing,menstees,teesrenewal]sonic yoof[/url]. 32. not bad.

    i'd never heard of urban outfitters til this show, so, well done joe!
  68. avatar boarsheadtaverncheapside
    Sonic Youth are signed to Starbucks and recorded music, in itself, is now worthless.
  69. avatar tinpot anto
    Bands being paid well (i hope) to promote a clothes shop is one thing.

    But really 32 for that T-shirt is ridiculous. I'll knock you one off for a tenner sure.
  70. avatar alex
    I thought the day was brilliant. Loads of people turned up who, as it has been said, might not get to see or might not know about local bands. Everyone enjoyed it from what I could see. We had a great time; it was really nice to play somewhere a bit out of our comfort zone and a have a good reception. Regardless of what these kids look like and regardless of how much they're doing it to be fashionble it makes them happy and who is anyone else to say its wrong, especially when they're not being directly affected by any of this. Leave people to be who they are, even if they choose to be something different in 6 months time. They're just kids; They can afford to do it. There just seems to be an air of 'I'm different to everyone else and I don't follow fashion therefore I've got it right.' on here which I don't think is right.

    I mean come on... its this or knife crime! :lol:
  71. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Re. 32 tshirt: that's about right for UO's TShirts. Your knocked off Tshirts would be terrible.

    Re. Chi Lite, well said niall. You're one to be bitching about irrelevant arguments. You talk more shite than anyone on here.
  72. avatar tinpot anto
    Aye but I'd have 4 tshirts in different colours for your one white one.

    I would wear them all at the same time, and switch them about through the night. That's cooler than one too expensive T-shirt.

    The idea of paying more than 10 for a t-shirt that hadn't previously been boaked on by hendrix or signed by Ali, makes me feel a bit sick.

    Each to their own.

    But seriously, that's wild for a tshirt.
  73. avatar rinky
    [quote:77ef2588c2="Steven Dedalus"]So I should assume that their selling of knock-off Sonic Youth t-shirts, etc, to people who have never heard of Sonic Youth, and are possibly not aware that they are a band is 'cool'?[/quote:77ef2588c2]

    I've nothing to say about gigs in UO or the price of their shirts. I have been wondering though about the glut of t-shirts featuring the 'Goo' cover around at the minute. It's not just UO, these are available in Topman/Topshop and a good few international designers now have their own distressed, colourised and otherwise modified versions.

    Nothing new there you'd say, the 'Goo' cover has been a perennial favourite of counterfeiters and for years has adorned many a student house wall or torso like a hip cousin to the "Beer - helping ugly people have sex since 1862" image.

    But, there's no way this new strain are 'knock-offs', these high street shops and international designers would need to license the image like any other artwork. So it begs the question, who sold off the rights? Sonic Youth, Geffen or perhaps most likely, yet surprisingly, Raymond Pettibon himself?
  74. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:5dfa62d50b="rinky"]

    who sold off the rights? Sonic Youth, Geffen or perhaps most likely, yet surprisingly, Raymond Pettibon himself?[/quote:5dfa62d50b]

    Sadly, the most likely answer - as pointed out to me by a good friend - is either Pettibon or Sonic Youth. As she herself said, "They'll probably just file it beside the Starbucks compilation."

    Which makes me sad, but there you go. I just wont wear my faded Goo t-shirt with pride anymore, and may cast it aside with to the pile of dusters that I don't have.
  75. avatar rinky
    [quote:2db9b76bf5="Steven Dedalus"]Sadly, the most likely answer - as pointed out to me by a good friend - is either Pettibon or Sonic Youth.[/quote:2db9b76bf5]

    Is it the most likely answer though? It's not like the image was licensed from Pettibon for the cover - as far as I know he was commissioned to create it specifically for the album, which would make it very unusual for him to have held on to the rights.

    Either way, I just think it's very very odd that a lot of people will be enjoying the dubious reflected cool of these shirts perhaps not having even heard the album, been aware of the great artist behind the image or, more weirdly that they're walking round wearing a picture of Maureen Hindley, off to her sister's trial.

    [img:2db9b76bf5]http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/6/6e/400px-Maureen_and_David.jpg[/img:2db9b76bf5]
  76. avatar the*optimist
    With regards to the image is there not some sort of loophole where you can take a picture of the image and alter it slightly and then you are free to use it aslong as you took the image?

    This may be a slightly dumbed down version of what I'm trying to get across but I thought thats how topman and loads of places got away with doing the ramones t-shirts.
  77. avatar rinky
    I short, no. What's more likely to have happened there with the Ramones, Motorhead et al shirts is either Topshop have licensed the images themselves, or they've been licensed to a merchandise company, who in turn have a instore commission arrangement with Topshop and the other shops selling them - it's really not very different to buying band logo tees in HMV/Virgin.
    I'm just curious who owned, and subsequently sold, the rights to the SY image in the first place.
  78. avatar tinpot anto
    My point is that the extra money for royalties is not the reason for the 32 price tag. The reason for that is that there's idiots who'll pay 32 for 12p's worth of cotton sewn together in exactly the same sweat shop conditions as the 3 for a fiver ones in Primark.

    Also i think advertising is sucking all the value out of music by diluting it with the utter balls they are trying to shift onto fools. I'm also almost convinced that the short term monetary gain for a band from royalties generated by advertising use and soundtrack placement ultimately devalues their music, brand and image - reducing it to the level of background muzak. It's hard to find evidence one way or the other, but I know I feel very differently about ubiquitous filler music like the Ting Tings as opposed to stuff that I can only listen too on CD/mp3. I quite like the Ting Ting's for a nice bit of pop fluff, but there's absolutely no point in buying any of their material because it will be unavoidable for the next 6 months on adverts, trailers, promo, beds for Bargain Hunt, background for Scrubs, and I know I'll be both sick of it, and find nothing of worth to listen to in it. It gives the impression of something made for purely superficial commercial purposes with no artistic merit, despite what may have been intended by the artist.

    I've always been fairly pragmatic about the idea of allowing music to be used in this way but I'm veering towards the firm conclusion that, at the end of the day, it's better on a purely commercial level to avoid it.

    I'm away off on one here, but I'm genuinely looking to see what people think on this. I've turned down a few things for the new TPO stuff because they were unsuitable and at present my thinking is that even on purely commercial terms it's a bad choice.
  79. avatar 10rapid
    This is all pure dung.

    Gig in a shop? class.
    Oppenheimer in Zavvi...cooool.
    Panama kings in urban outfitters...not on apparently.

    Let them play gigs wherever they want. Let their new fans wear whatever they want. 32 quid for a t-shirt? fair enough. It's not your money they're spending to look like a 90s grunger/follower of the most overated bunch of toss I can remember (sonic youth have one good album: dirty and another good song: teenage riot. beyond that their mostly arse.)

    so topman sucks/urban outfitters suck/primark suck everyone bloody sucks. where do you people buy your clothes? Or do you walk around naked in socialist utopia? Or have clothes made from old socialist worker t-shirts and copies of an phoblacht?

    I bought a new pair of shoes last week for 90 quid. I deliberated about it but then i said "catch yourself on dude, these are sweet as. get them and be the coolest mo'fucker around."

    and that my friends is how i roll.
  80. avatar tinpot anto
    That wasn't the argument I was looking for. I know people will pay over the odds for designer tat - I don't - oddly precisely cause during my formative years it was the era of Sonic Youth and grunge and such things were not in vogue, and also because there was not enough money about to waste. Stag Jeans 3.99 hear me now!

    I wanted to see whether anyone agrees that making a lot of placement/publishing deals earlier on is likely to ultimately have a negative effect long term on your music?
  81. avatar thesacredhearts
    On your music, no.

    On the opinion the endlessly harping wankdogs of internet forums hold of you, yes.
  82. avatar rinky
    [quote:a50427be51="tinpot anto"]The reason for that is that there's idiots who'll pay 32 for 12p's worth of cotton sewn together in exactly the same sweat shop conditions as the 3 for a fiver ones in Primark.[/quote:a50427be51]

    You don't know that at all. A lot of the UO tees I've seen (and the vast majority of those bought in from smaller designers) are just re-branded American Apparel shirts. And whatever you might think of AA's questionable marketing policies and bell-end of a CEO, they're not sweat shop garments.
  83. avatar George W Best
    Surely this thread should have been moved to Industry and Commerce by now? I mean come on Mods DO YOUR JOB!
  84. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:6cb458c910="tinpot anto"]
    I'm away off on one here, but I'm genuinely looking to see what people think on this. I've turned down a few things for the new TPO stuff because they were unsuitable and at present my thinking is that even on purely commercial terms it's a bad choice.[/quote:6cb458c910]

    I agree with you on that one.

    I always remember Nick Cave saying that he would never, ever let any of his music be used in an advert, because he hated the thought of someone's favourite song being used to sell washing powder or something.

    And that's in addition to the moral argument associated with it.

    I mean, does anyone remember the Nike 'Minor Threat' campaign? That was just insulting.
  85. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:aa1ecf7cd7]And whatever you might think of AA's questionable marketing policies and bell-end of a CEO, they're not sweat shop garments.[/quote:aa1ecf7cd7]

    AA maybe - that's your guess that they ARE AA t-shirts as you said, but Urban Outfitters are ringing quite a few alarm bells amongst the corporate watchers of Greater Google.

    And in the words of the President of UO himself
    [quote:aa1ecf7cd7]Yes, says Hayne, nearly all of Urban Outfitters' apparel is manufactured in Third World sewing shops--just like nearly all of the clothing sold in this country. If Urban Outfitters relied on domestic union labor, says Hayne, most of his customers could not afford the price he would have to charge to turn a profit. [b:aa1ecf7cd7]All things being relative[/b:aa1ecf7cd7], he says, Urban Outfitters does not contract with any sewing shops that are overtly inhumane or exploitive. [/quote:aa1ecf7cd7]
    http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=5725


    And my argument about advert placement isn't about the ethics or credibility issue - that's another story and pointless on a message board - simply that because these things are so ubiquitous and unavoidable that in the long term it can have a negative effect on the success of an artist long term.
  86. avatar T Entertainment
    Can I just thank everyone on this thread for using the phrase 't-shirts' rather than 'tees'? Can I? For the use of the latter fills me with genocidal rage and was all but ubiquitous a while back. *sighs contentedly*
  87. avatar rinky
    [quote:0bafa0ce2e="tinpot anto"][quoteAA maybe - that's your guess that they ARE AA t-shirts as you said.[/quote:0bafa0ce2e]

    Not a guess, I [i:0bafa0ce2e]know[/i:0bafa0ce2e] a lot of them are. Just the t-shirts, I've no idea of the origins of the rest of their stock, which are obviously made in sweatshops going by the quote above.

    [quote:0bafa0ce2e="T Entertainment"]Can I just thank everyone on this thread for using the phrase 't-shirts' rather than 'tees'? Can I? For the use of the latter fills me with genocidal rage and was all but ubiquitous a while back. *sighs contentedly*[/quote:0bafa0ce2e]

    Ha, it's just a word that's snuck in as most online shops will use it. A bit ridiculous out loud, but I'd have thought it fairly innocuous as a simple shortened word, no?
  88. avatar T Entertainment
    It just makes me want to distract myself from the irritation it causes by eating tinfoil or licking square batteries.
    There's something badly wrong in my head, I am fully willing to accept.
  89. avatar rinky
    [quote:99089e071b="T Entertainment"]It just makes me want to distract myself from the irritation it causes by eating tinfoil or licking square batteries.
    There's something badly wrong in my head, I am fully willing to accept.[/quote:99089e071b]

    I understand, you were you called T-shirt in school weren't you?


    [img:99089e071b]http://hight.50webs.com/imgs/wonders/8/tshirt.jpg[/img:99089e071b]
  90. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:2a0c4e65b7="Steven Dedalus"]I always remember Nick Cave saying that he would never, ever let any of his music be used in an advert, because he hated the thought of someone's favourite song being used to sell washing powder or something.[/quote:2a0c4e65b7]

    "Apparently the highest compliment our culture grants
    artists nowadays is to be in an ad ideally naked and purring on the hood of a new car." Tom Waits

    I'm with you on this one :) Actually, I have the same issues with bands playing in Zavvis or HMV [1], even if it makes more sense than a clothes shop. I was just complaining last night about how it reduces the band's music to background muzak to soundtrack someone's shopping trip.

    While it can be looked at as the band and shop (ab?)using each other for their own goals, I think the shop ultimately comes out on top and the band doesn't get as much out of it as they expected.

    [quote:2a0c4e65b7]It's an advert for Local talent, and UO's commitment to promoting new music[/quote:2a0c4e65b7]

    As a corporation UO has one commitment: to make money for their shareholders. How they do that is currently by pretending to be cool and having bands play instores and giving away free drinks. As soon as that stops generating the same publicity/cash they will drop it. They have no commitment to promote new music and if you truely believe that they do then you're a moron.

    [1] Playing a benefit for a small indie shop on the other hand, well it depends on the shop.
  91. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    UO's gig - everyone at it had a good time. Bands made new fans. None of the bands or punters on here bitching. Happy days.

    Its all well and good being all right on about licencing music when you're TPO as TPO aren't professional musicians, though Anto speaks like he is. Its also easy when you're Tom Waits + Nick Cave, as both are millionaires.

    But music industry is in a bad shape. Alot of bands now rely on sync deals to keep their band afloat. Ask Oppenheimer, Alloy Mental, Skibunny etc etc - do you think these bands survive on live revenue / record sales? Probably.

    Sure its sad that its necessary in many instances to do these things to make money, but otherwise there'd be no new music.
  92. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:de00ad9b79="Joeplaysthedrums"]Sure its sad that its necessary in many instances to do these things to make money, but otherwise there'd be no new music.[/quote:de00ad9b79]

    Bullshit.
  93. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Edited due to boredom with this debate.
  94. avatar rigsyATL
    [quote:ec0243db79]As a corporation UO has one commitment: to make money for their shareholders. How they do that is currently by pretending to be cool and having bands play instores and giving away free drinks. As soon as that stops generating the same publicity/cash they will drop it. They have no commitment to promote new music and if you truely believe that they do then you're a moron.[/quote:ec0243db79]

    call me a moron....but it's really not as simple as that in this case - i know for an absolute fact that the guy who manages UO in belfast is doing this cause he DOES have an interest in local music - it's not something thats coming from above at all - in fact i would imagine he's taking a risk even doing this in the first place (And if he reads this, he'll wonder why he bothered).

    i'm not saying that if it didn't work or generate publicity/revenue for UO he'd keep doing for the love of local music, but it's not the case that this is only being done 'to make money for shareholders' - it's because the guy likes live music, has good contacts locally and wanted to try something different, for the craic more than anything. don't always assume the worst.
  95. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:6665a3c925="rigsyATL"]it's not something thats coming from above at all[/quote:6665a3c925]

    Thats weird
    http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/urban/index.jsp
    seems to suggest that they're sucking up to the music industry in other ways as well. While the specifics of how its done may not be dictated, as soon as corporate focus changes, you won't be seeing any more bands in the stores.

    But suck the corporate cock all you want, Rigsy. 'Tis not for me. Not artisticly anyway.
  96. avatar rigsyATL
    i'm not sucking anyones cock, my friend.

    and i have absolutely nothing to do with the venture. in any capacity. i'm simply pointing out that part of your previous, sweeping statement wasn't *entirely* true - it's defo not as sinister as you're implying!

    i do get your broader point though, of course.

    anyway, this is nothing to do with me. back in my box.
  97. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:86dbb83e43="Joeplaysthedrums"]

    Sure its sad that its necessary in many instances to do these things to make money, but otherwise there'd be no new music.[/quote:86dbb83e43]

    That is completely true. Ever since I started slagging of this cynical exercise in consumerism, no notes come out of my guitar.

    I tried tapping out a rhythm on my leg, but the beats turned out all wrong.

    I opened my mouth to sing, and it didn't come out right.

    Truly, this is the death of music.

    I'm off to phone Ian Mackaye to tell him that he better get on the phone to McDonalds to write a jingle for them, or he's fucked.
  98. avatar 10rapid
    This is all balls.

    I've never heard panama kings but I hear they're good.
    But this thread reeks of slagging for the sake of it.
    A while back oppenheimer got their tune used on Nike's website and everyone said "well done lads"

    A while ago oppenheimer got a gig in zavvi and everyone went "well done lads, more of this sort of thing"

    Now these bands play a gig in UO and people are banging on about all this sellout shit like they're the original punks.

    I hope these bands got well paid for this wee jaunt...because doing a similar gig in auntie annie's or something would have earned them very little.
    also I hope it got them new fans...and who cares what they looked like or what they wore. Is it a case of "my fans are better than your's"? Isn't "punk rawk" supposed to make us all equal...or maybe some are more equal than others.

    Wise up and leave nick cave out of it. sure, he's not licensed his tunes for commercials but he's no stranger to doing HMV instores with grinderman or indeed i-tunes gigs with the bad seeds...so really he did the same as these guys.

    As for tom waits, he charges 100 quid a ticket and gets off with playing every 10 years or some shit. good for him. If he was worried about commercialisation he shouldn't have sold his fuckin tune to rod stewart!
  99. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:2c175d04ac]Its all well and good being all right on about licencing music when you're TPO as TPO aren't professional musicians, though Anto speaks like he is. Its also easy when you're Tom Waits + Nick Cave, as both are millionaires. [/quote:2c175d04ac]

    Joe stop filling in my posts with "Auto-Anto" quotes from Citizen Smith and the Young Ones.

    I'm asking from a professional point-of-view however, and I'm trying to see what people think about whether excessive licensing of tracks at an early stage, which can gather revenue is actually counter-productive in the long term to an artists image and status.

    Value judgements about the right and wrongs of capitalism are not involved at all. From an absolutely relativist and pragmatic point of view.

    If we have the chance to make some money up front by allowing music to be licensed to an ad firm. not super money, but a modest sum which would allow us to leap frog to the next level and promote the new album to a proper semi-professional level (ie pay radio pluggers, get national distribution. etc. etc. on our own terms with a little luck)

    My thinking is at present that this could easily be a double edged sword. We are an ambitious band, everything we've done so far has suggested that what we are doing has a proper long term appeal to some people, whilst others will never get it, so there is no point in chasing that mainstream success. I'm thinking that as lovely and nice as a nice bung of cash would be right now, continuing on as we have been doing growing our income and fan base organically is the way to go.

    I actually thought this debate, might have distracted from the OMG SELLOUTZ cul-de-sac this thread was heading for. Well done to UO for supporting these gigs, well done to the bands for landing a sweet (and I imagine well paid) gig and getting new crowd.

    But that all said 32 for a sweat shop t-shirt is barmy. (BUT THAT IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DEBATE)
  100. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    [quote:7e03fcee2b="Steven Dedalus"]
    I'm off to phone Ian Mackaye[/quote:7e03fcee2b]


    Ah the old 'indie's not dead, ask Ian McKaye' chestnut.

    Though tbf, if it wasn't for licensing, music wouldn't die, obviously. That'd not what i meant. But to say that sync cash isn't essential in keeping alot of new acts on the road is just naive.
  101. avatar thesacredhearts
    Houl on...

    [quote:f717363d13]which can gather revenue is actually counter-productive in the long term to an artists image and status. [/quote:f717363d13]

    yesterday you were saying...

    [quote:f717363d13]
    likely to ultimately have a negative effect long term on your music?[/quote:f717363d13]

    which one is it?

    And indeed why are those so worried with shunning image or the associated branding worried about what affect it will have on any ones image.

    Its always fascinated me how vitriolic some people get when it comes to image and music. The people who are so involved with appearing "real" or "genuine" expend as much effort waxing lyrical over the foibles of fashion as those that get dressed up!

    This isnt an exercise in "selling out" its good sense for a band to do these gigs as it offers good publicity. It offers the company involved an incentive as they may sell product. This is no different to a local band night in any local bar.
  102. avatar George W Best
    Good point, what is the difference between playing in a bar in order to boost alcohol sales and playing in a shop to boost clothes sales?
    Surely playing in a bar is more irresponsible due to the ill-health effects of alcohol?
  103. avatar boarsheadtaverncheapside
    [quote:03efa11465="tinpot anto"]
    If we have the chance to make some money up front by allowing music to be licensed to an ad firm. not super money, but a modest sum which would allow us to leap frog to the next level and promote the new album to a proper semi-professional level (ie pay radio pluggers, get national distribution. etc. etc. on our own terms with a little luck)[/quote:03efa11465]

    Get real man, take the money and run.
  104. avatar tinpot anto
    [quote:69fe94cd90]which one is it?

    And indeed why are those so worried with shunning image or the associated branding worried about what affect it will have on any ones image.

    Its always fascinated me how vitriolic some people get when it comes to image and music. The people who are so involved with appearing "real" or "genuine" expend as much effort waxing lyrical over the foibles of fashion as those that get dressed up!

    This isnt an exercise in "selling out" its good sense for a band to do these gigs as it offers good publicity. It offers the company involved an incentive as they may sell product. This is no different to a local band night in any local bar.[/quote:69fe94cd90]

    That's exactly why I'm not criticising the shop, the bands or the organisers in any way, AT ALL.

    We've had the image debate before and I think I've made it clear that the image of the TPO is really important to both us and those who like us. In many ways this is my point. If we allowed our tunes to be plastered over adverts for computer games and toothpaste it would, in my view lose some of what people like about it in the first place.

    And as for changing the actual music? Yes. Absolutely.

    I, and the band as a whole always try and write purely for ourselves. It doesn't always work out and sometimes you get drawn in to writing about stuff that's expected of you and so forth, but that's the general goal. it's satisfying and people respond to it.

    If my goal was to create music specifcally that would make money through advertising revenue and placement in Gray's Anatomy etc., it would sound completely different - I wouldn't be able to help writing towards that purpose, and everything the TPO is would cease to exist (*cheers from some quarters*). Whilst the styles of music used for this sort of thing are wide and varied, the actual content is incredibly narrow - only the very skilled can smuggle enough meat into a song destined for a mobile phone advert where grown men and women are drawing rainbows with crayons on a VW.

    The same goes if you are pitching to a certain fanbase - it's been part of music for years, but I happen to think that pitching to an utterly vaccuous idea of people in an imaginary demographic is a bit mad no. TV music and ad music is always going to be much narrower than that accepted by Joe Pubics.

    Surely you can recognise the same influence on your own writing? Not a massive one maybe, but part of that QC process you go through when you write.

    I could maybe see myself writing music like that as a side project for a little cash, but never for the TPO. and I have a day job already, so my soul is already a little dried out at the edges, thanks. :)

    Just to recap
    I AM NOT
    - criticising anyone who organised, took part, or attended the gig at UO
    - suggesting any one commenting here is a "Sell Out" (unless you are a member of Sinn Fein/DUP) :lol:
    - Saying I rid anyone's ma.

    I AM
    - suggesting that taking ad revenue might not be the best course of action for the TPO because it may tarnish our image and influence our musical direction long term.
    - Asking others, who may have experience to comment on this.


    EDIT

    Does anyone remeber the Sony ads that used to have "[i:69fe94cd90]Got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time..."[/i:69fe94cd90] but the sample was cut off just before the refrain of "IT CAN'T GET MUCH WORSE"

    I like that.
  105. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:94dc38e5e2="Joeplaysthedrums"]

    Ah the old 'music not belonging to or affiliated with a major record company's not dead, ask Ian McKaye' chestnut.

    [/quote:94dc38e5e2]

    Well, to be fair, it isn't.

    And what happened to just being in a band for fun?

    I have no problem with bands wanting to make money out of music (it's not for me, but then again, neither is heroin abuse) but I think saying that without bands making loads of money, and going down the corporate route, that there will be no new music...well, that's just preposterous.

    And the Ian MacKaye point is valid because he is still a constant reminder that you can be in a band without having to do it this way. You may think it's an old argument, but that's only because it's still true.

    Don't get me wrong, as I've stated elsewhere, I think you've done a stirling job on promoting music, and with this particular gig, everyone seems to have had a good night, both in terms of commerce and music, but my whole point is that this is not the way forward, and it never will be.

    It has in in-built obselesence, and only represents a gain in the short term. It's the same argument as saying that you can bring touring bands to the Speakeasy or wherever, attract the casual music 'fan', and expect them to fall in love with the local support and go to every gig they ever play afterwards - I've seen it, and it doesn't happen.

    By all means, put on quality gigs, and put bums on seats, just don't expect it to be the same bums on seats in a years time. Things will have moved on by then, and stuff with a lack of substance has a habit of being...well, shallow.

    Myself, I will concentrate on going to top quality gigs, and supporting local bands, and then carping on about what I percieve to be a lack of morals in our society.

    I am old, after all.



    EDIT - Anto's post above perfectly articulates my view on this, far better than I have so far been able to.
  106. avatar thesacredhearts
    [quote:24eb28df24]just don't expect it to be the same bums on seats in a years time[/quote:24eb28df24]

    Thats what some would call progress/change and others fadishness. But is that really any different to how its always been?

    EDit: Oh and that post wasnt directed specifically at you Anto, apart from the discrepancy in your posts part.
  107. avatar T Entertainment
    I heard that La Senza in Castlecourt are putting on a reformed Ghost of An American Airman, Ballymoney grindmerchants Putrefy and The belFEST favourites Dirty Stevie, can anyone confirm?
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  108. avatar tinpot anto
    It's exactly the same to how it's always been, but the ad men are just a bazillion times better at selling stuff than they were even 20 years ago. And as Joe says making money from hard product and gigging is next to impossible.

    I don't think it's actually impossible though. i think it's a hell of a lot harder than the alternative, but ultimately attainable and more desireable, satisfying and sustainable.

    I've never understood the reluctance of major labels to sign, promote and support a lot of moderately successful, but profitable small=time artists, with a moderate amount of investment, rather than consistently throwing shedloads of money at box-ticking pretty face-haircut bands who no one likes.

    Seems like a business model formed out of madness, doesn't it?
  109. avatar thesacredhearts
    Yet they seem to be doing alright out of it.
  110. avatar tinpot anto
    Yet constantly moaning out of their holes about downloading killing their investment budget for new acts?

    I think an EasyJet style record label based on a "little but often" approach would actually be incredibly profitable. In many ways, this is just what TuneCore and CDbaby ARE if you follow me.

    Actual physical CD sales are unchanged for the real indie labels. The profit per, unit for these sales is up. Both the Artist and the Label get more of that profit per item sold than those on majors.

    http://www.bemuso.com/articles/moneysponge.html

    Seriously. If I was making wee ceramic pigs in my garage for 1 a touch and selling them for 10, I'd have a business.
    [quote:6fa4e93df8]
    UMG is showing a profit of around 6%.
    Sony/BMG is showing a loss and has unusual expenses left over from the merger, Sony payola fines, and the Sony/BMG CD copy-protection case.
    EMI is showing a profit of about 5%.
    WMG is showing a substantial loss and has unusual expenses left over from the Bronfman takeover[/quote:6fa4e93df8]

    Also this is awesomely handy
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  111. avatar JTM
    [quote:b32626591d="tinpot anto"]
    <snip>
    ...
    I've never understood the reluctance of major labels to sign, promote and support a lot of moderately successful, but profitable small=time artists, with a moderate amount of investment, rather than consistently throwing shedloads of money at box-ticking pretty face-haircut bands who no one likes.

    Seems like a business model formed out of madness, doesn't it?[/quote:b32626591d]


    Simple - it's a lot easier to spend all your dough on something you think you'll see a large return on than spending more time and effort chasing the same value of nickels-and-dimes. Not condusive to good music but since when did good business = good music?

    EDIT: Looks like CDBaby has found a way to make it work, good news I say.
  112. avatar boarsheadtaverncheapside
    Ant - it seems like you're asking people to look into your head or heart or something and then tell you what to do, but no-one can.
    No-one here is in a band for the rewards - mostly because there are none, but it does cost. On that basis you're entitled to take the money, put it to good use.
  113. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:a574ff6d13="tinpot anto"]
    Seems like a business model formed out of madness, doesn't it?[/quote:a574ff6d13]

    When I worked in the music business (lowest rung, to be sure...) I was always amazed how it seems to be the only business in the world that deems an 80% failure rate acceptable.*

    Back in the day, a major record label could sign what they wanted, release what they wanted, fail to sell as many records as they wanted, all in the hope that a Coldplay or Killers would come along and make it all better again.

    Which is directly linked to why bands seem to dissappear after their first album.

    *That figure ain't exact, admittedly, but it was something like that.

    STEVEN DEDALUS' OUTDATED OPINION:

    The American model of 'success' always seemed more appealing to me, if slightly unrealistic in the UK. Tour, build up a fanbase, and take your time. American indie bands always seemed to have a lot more room to breathe, and could develop, and look at what options were open to them at any given point.

    Hence a band like REM could continutally deliver the goods to a realistically expanding fanbase, and eventually get to a point where Warners could sign them, without taking a risk, and also offer them artistic freedom. See also Sonic Youth.

    Or you could go down the Dischord route, and build it up in whatever sort of ethical model you wanted.

    Of course, this is all just history lessons, but it partially explains why I can't just sit there and accept the prevailing attitude of "This is just the way it is, and you have to do it by these rules."

    Which is why I have a lot of time for labels like No Dancing,Furious Tradesmen, and - of course - We Collect Records, which are allowing bands to release incredible music, without having to hang it on a peg to make it appealing. And I think the music released by them will be around for a long, long time, ignoring fashion, trends, and 'commercial viability'.


    Edited for simpering bum-licking.
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  114. avatar colin
    http://www.cable360.net/images/articles/24019_1182311715.jpg

    Joe Dougan, yesterday.
  115. avatar Stuart Gowdy
    [quote:fe4e0b615d="Steven Dedalus"]Which is why I have a lot of time for labels like No Dancing and Furious Tradesmen, which are allowing bands to release incredible music, without having to hang it on a peg to make it appealing. And I think the music released by them will be around for a long, long time, ignoring fashion, trends, and 'commercial viability'.[/quote:fe4e0b615d]

    Add We Collect Records to that there list sonny jim.
  116. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    This is all great.

    Ask Niall / Jimmy / Matt from those labels if Adidas offered them 2k to synch one of their tracks what they would do. I 100% guarantee they'd go for it.

    But then again, they have a different attitude, since they actually work in the business, rather than waste time slagging it off and saying why its fucked.
  117. avatar Furious Tradesmen
    true fact.
    probably wouldn't do reebok though, even though it's an adidas subsidiary.


    ps add we love records to that, sonny jim, and their tracer amc / news letter podcast theme tune deal. that was a sweet deal. i'm still living off my 15% cut.
  118. avatar Steven Dedalus
    [quote:78016b0fa6="Joeplaysthedrums"]This is all great.

    Ask Niall / Jimmy / Matt from those labels if Adidas offered them 2k to synch one of their tracks what they would do. I 100% guarantee they'd go for it.

    But then again, they have a different attitude, since they actually work in the business, rather than waste time slagging it off and saying why its fucked.[/quote:78016b0fa6]

    It's ok Joe, I apologise for the slight I have not given you.

    You are now free to go back to single-handedly saving the Northern Irish music industry.
  119. avatar tinpot anto
    OK so if we can filter out the over-defensive handbagging, and the patronising "Wait til you're working in the music biz, sonny." tones. What you're saying is

    "Yes I think that placement and licensing deals are in the long term interest of an artist, as they provide a much needed revenue stream."

    i agree to a certain extent, but I still don't think it's right for every artist.

    I think there are now far to many artists who no longer think beyond these publishing deals and produce anaemic, gossamer-thin muzak with a veneer of indie cred.
    To me an artist or band lives and dies on doing the one thing they do well as best they can. TPO are never going to compete on the polished, beautifully constructed and mainstream circuit, but we do have a lot of people who like us, and the band, as a business turns a small, but increasing profit year on year - not going to support 4 people and their families any time soon, but we can but dream and work that wee bit harder all the time. Saying we don't "work" in the business is a bit insulting Joe.
  120. avatar thesacredhearts
    I heard Bored with Belfast is to be used as the music for Derry city councils new tourism adverts.
  121. avatar tinpot anto
    Ever since we wrote it I always pictured the tune over one of those cheap ass UTV adverts for a local furniture chain called Moore's.

    "[i:b8069b677e]Moore's of Belfast, Moore's have got more for you!"[/i:b8069b677e] :lol:

    You know it. ;)
  122. avatar pennydistribution
    Anto - I'm hoping to answer your question directly, so let me know if I'm missing anything - but I think the whole question is entirely relative. In my experience, signing a sync or master use deal with any advertiser has it's risks - look at Wilco's deal with VW - but I'd caution everyone to never dismiss a possible licensing deal out of hand just because it's "commercial". It should of course be within your moral boundaries, and more importantly, the general moral boundaries of your fans. I think the real conflict can come when, as some record deals dictate, that an artist doesn't need to be consulted before their music is used in these ways - usually because a label has grabbed 100% of publishing AND owns the master.

    In todays world, there's no reason why all of these rights wouldn't reside with the artist who can then make the decision once the opportunity to be in an Apple ad presents itself.

    Of course, we're missing the step where Apple's ready to offer you a deal - but we don't need to go that far up. What about the Dept. of Agriculture and Rural Development in NI approaching you to include a snippet in their new campaign? A local media company who's looking, like our friend at UO, to support local music and include new talent. Or the Ulster Wildlife Trust's new animal awareness campaign? You could try going out, forming relationships with local medias companies and film makers to use your music to grow the local media business as a whole. The flavors of commercial inclusion are so wide and varied that to dismiss them out of hand would be, as previously mentioned, naive and foolhardy.

    I'd like to think that most artists would be *ecstatic* if they could make enough money from their music to give up their day job and focus on music 24/7. That doesn't have to mean selling you soul, but it does mean being open to opportunities and making business decisions - albeit ones that are in line with your ethics as an artist/business.

    On a side note: You seem to have a clear idea of how you'd like to run a music business. Why not give it a shot? (and I don't mean this in a "put up or shut up way", I mean it sincerely).
  123. avatar barrypeak
    Most bands could easily make a living by...

    Getting a job. Maybe something that they are good at and can make a career of. Treat music as something they do on the side. You know, how people treat football and gardening and stuff.

    Imagine if people who weren't good enough to play sport professionally looked for some industry structure to blame and held forums and symposiums on "alternative revenue streams" for the failed trampolinist.

    There are so many bands and too few people buying records.

    Yes, try hard. Even if you get the tiniest bit of success and get to travel and hang out and meet cool people it will have been worth it. But don't expect it and don't feel aggrieved when it doesn't happen.
  124. avatar pennydistribution
    P.S. Quite a relevant discussion about this going on over at Wired's Listening Post Blog:

    http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/07/poll-is-there-s.html
  125. avatar goatboy
    [quote:5ac9773cd0="barrypeak"]Most bands could easily make a living by...

    Getting a job. Maybe something that they are good at and can make a career of. Treat music as something they do on the side. You know, how people treat football and gardening and stuff.

    Imagine if people who weren't good enough to play sport professionally looked for some industry structure to blame and held forums and symposiums on "alternative revenue streams" for the failed trampolinist.

    There are so many bands and too few people buying records.

    Yes, try hard. Even if you get the tiniest bit of success and get to travel and hang out and meet cool people it will have been worth it. But don't expect it and don't feel aggrieved when it doesn't happen.[/quote:5ac9773cd0]

    I agree with Barry 100% on this. I read a really good interview with Steve (I think) from the Broken Family Band regarding this and he also made some really good points on the matter. Unfortunately I now can't find it.

    I personally don't see the point in living like a tramp with an unknown future with no money, no clean clothes and no light at the end of the tunnel. Being on the road is great fun, yes, but it could go on indefinitely until "the big break comes", which it might never will (and most probably never will).
  126. avatar tinpot anto
    I want to keep this away from the Sell Out issue. The moral issue isn't the one that's bugging me, I have a knack for justifying just about anything I want to myself if I have to :)

    Penny - I have the ideas, maybe, but actually running a proper business would be something I hate. I resent the amount of time I have to spend on "business" and "PR" versus actual music making already. The former is something I know I suck at, and it does not give me a good feeling to do it. The fact that despite this the band are doing well I've always taken as a good sign.

    I do think there is an argument for keeping the two separate as both suffer when you have to consider them together.

    As Barry said too. I have a job that allows me to survive - so does 99.999999999999% of musicians. I don't see music as a pointless hobby however, I see it as a cottage industry, like card making or porcelain pigs.

    I can make something for a certain amount of money, and sell it for a little more money. That's a business, and as long as that continues to happen it will be viable. The question is akin to, if you make porcelain pigs in your garage, and are able to sell a few on ebay and that, do you take a deal with Poundstretcher to take your design and make them in China for buttons, and give you a 5% royalty or do you set up your own site and continue with modest sales, with a bigger return - but ultimately more long-term success.

    That's how I see it right now.
  127. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    [quote:e80f71d00f="Steven Dedalus"]You are now free to go back to single-handedly saving the Northern Irish music industry.[/quote:e80f71d00f]

    Haha
  128. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    When will flares come back into fashion?
  129. avatar Captain Kennedy
    [quote:36481e850c="Mickeycolensoparade"]When will flares come back into fashion?[/quote:36481e850c]

    I've been wearing them for 10 years.
  130. avatar T Entertainment
    "Imagine if people who weren't good enough to play sport professionally looked for some industry structure to blame and held forums and symposiums on "alternative revenue streams" for the failed trampolinist."



    That's one of the smartest (and funniest) posts on here in months. :lol:

    Northern Ireland is far too small to sustain anything than a very small industry, with a very small number of people making a living out of contemporary music and its assorted miscellany. How many people in NI are making a living exclusively out of (original) music, be it performing, managing, promoting, producing or writing about it? (and here I mean the sort of music discussed on this board and MI, not country and western or flute bands).
    Would it tip 100? Possibly, if you're flexibile with definitions, but still...it's not in the hundreds.
    And I can't see what's going to change that situation really dramatically. Not that there can't be improvement, but the scope for 'revenue' has a ceiling.
    This is not defeatism or negativity - as Barry says, if you're sane you do it first and foremost for the love of it. Even if you're genuinely brilliant, the odds are stacked against you 'making it'. Narrow the odds with smart decision making and hard graft all you can of course. But bear the rest in mind.

    That all has f*ck all to do with the gig in UO, btw.
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  131. avatar Mickeycolensoparade
    Good, they'll be back in no time, I keep rockin' em too.

    I'd love a loada money for playing music.
  132. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Good point Chris.

    I reckon music business is like anything else, i haven't heard of many people with a pragmatic approach and genuine work ethic + talent not getting somewhere eventually.
  133. avatar boarsheadtaverncheapside
    Nightmare, zero out of three.
  134. avatar tinpot anto
    So in summary then.

    Gigs in shops: good
    Advertising revenue: mixed blessing
    Anto: talks out ass, all.the.time
    Joe: Saves Music But Also Arch-Scene-Wrecker in disguise.
    Chance of meaningful discourse on internet: No.
    Should know better: Yes.

    :D

    Off to more working hard and stuff then innit.
  135. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    Arch scene-wrecker : i like it.

    Roger, please lock this discussion!!
  136. avatar barrypeak
    But Joe,

    The same discussion is just bubbling under in the gigs forum in the thread about New Irish Noise.

    Only a matter of time before someone says "I know the guy from Miller and he has a real interest in New Irish Noise". Then someone might suggest The Richter Collective is merely a front for a powerful alcohol lobby determined to get kids hooked on booze.

    Just wait!
  137. avatar tinpot anto
    I prefer Miller Pils.
  138. avatar my-angel-rocks
    [quote:7dba0c6091="Joeplaysthedrums"]i haven't heard of many people with a pragmatic approach and genuine work ethic + talent not getting somewhere eventually.[/quote:7dba0c6091]

    Is that not kinda self-fulfilling though? you haven't heard of the people with a pragmatic appro... who haven't got somewhere because they haven't got anywhere so you haven't heard of them?
  139. avatar fastfude
    [quote:7b245c1052="Joeplaysthedrums"]Roger, please lock this discussion!![/quote:7b245c1052]
    Howsabout you lot resolve it amicably instead? ;)
  140. avatar Joeplaysthedrums
    I don't think its gonna happen Roger!

    Can i not pay you off with my ill-gotten corporate coin to make it go away?
  141. avatar nodancing
    That's a long old thread! I read 3 pages back, so may be missing some points...but regards my label and sync deals.

    It's as easy as this...if i'd be happy to buy the product i'd be happy to have tracks sync'd to that product. Providing the acts are happy and it's in the context of a good ad.

    It's amazing exposure AND you get cash money. Problem?