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Rumours re The Rotterdam
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rentaghost
Tue 15th May 2007, 9:31 amThere is a rumour doing the rounds on Myspace that the Rotterdam will be closing to make way for apartments.
Anyone heard anything to substantiate this? Sounds unlikely to me.
And I quote
"OK
Here's the news folks!!
It can be billed as 'speculation' and rumour so far... but I do know from a reliable source that planning for apartments is under way!!
Please help by adding the profile
www.myspace.com/savetherotterdam
I must stress - this news is just surfacing and requires thorough investigation before any course of action is decided - rumours will abound as to who is doing what -
...but if what we're hearing is true, then we have to make a loud enough noise to prevent financially motivated development from ravaging the soul out of our musical and architectural heritage and culture... THEY HAVE DONE ENOUGH DAMAGE ALREADY!
...the developers in this project and others... including The National Trust and the Environment and Heritage Service need to be made aware that The Rotterdam Bar is worth incorporating into any potential development of that site.
The Rotterdam Bar and indeed Pat's Bar have been the life and soul of Sailortown for 180+ years. The Rotterdam was, at one time, used to 'detain' criminals who were being sent to Australia by boat... and in recent years, especially through the darkest days of The Troubles (i hate calling it that) The Rotterdam has seen some of the worlds finest musicians grace it's tiny stage and meagre capacity... yet they came from all around the world to play there.
I don't want to paint any potential developer of the Rotterdam as a cold-hearted, financially motivated Philistine - but anyone building apartments in this area that are outside the financial capacity of the local community... (especially since the local community that inhabited this area traditionally would have been of modest stock)... must be aware, that any such move would be entirely 'against the grain' of that local community.
They just need to be made aware by the sheer volume and cross section of people who care, that progress doesn't always have to be about getting rid of the old.
We like the real fire in the winter and the barbeques in the summer... and those lovely brick walls that have seen so many decades of changing Belfast. We love the intimacy those walls create around the artist and the audience. Belfast is a rich place because of The Rotterdam Bar... we all feel the history when we are there...
The bar has always been an island of calm in troubled city - a place for all it's patrons to observe neutrality... the brickwork and the music transcended all of the sectarian hatred and bigotry outside.
We have already lost The Maritime, The Pound, The Viking, The Labour Club, Du Barry’s, The Kitchen Bar... Let's not add The Rotterdam Bar to that list!!
This is all about social integration in OUR city!!"
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thebatgranny
Tue 15th May 2007, 9:38 amI'm probably in the same boat as most people here, I love the Rotterdam it's lovely bar but it's just too far out of the way so I never go there. I'd be annoyed if they pulled it down though.
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The Grace Jones
Tue 15th May 2007, 9:42 amIt's about ten minutes walk from the city centre, it just seems further because it's through a strange wasteland of overpasses etc.
I will weep if this is true. I will actually lie in front of the JCBs in my dressing gown, Arthur Dent stylee.
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Tue 15th May 2007, 9:48 am
The only thing that makes me think that it might be true is the St Joseph's situation.
Alsosomeone wrote:
the local community that inhabited this area traditionally would have been of modest stockThe person who wrote this has obviously never met Smitty.
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Achey
Tue 15th May 2007, 9:55 amThey're not closing it, like.
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Meerium
Tue 15th May 2007, 10:05 ammr meerium works down at clarendon dock, and they have cleared space for flats down there, but it's behind the rotterdam and pat's bar, and both bars are very much intact.
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kingmob
Tue 15th May 2007, 10:25 amWell, it could be Rotterdam or anywhere I suppose.
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domhnall
Tue 15th May 2007, 10:33 amThere have always been discussions about putting apartments there, even back when Botanic Inns owned it. That was also one of the rumoured reasons for Woolsey buying it.
someone wrote:
We have already lost The Maritime, The Pound, The Viking, The Labour Club, Du Barry’s, The Kitchen BarDuBarry's was so badly run down and abandoned by 1997 that it could not be saved when the renewal began, and is now the 'new bar' side of McHugh's.
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Speed Demon
Tue 15th May 2007, 11:30 amThe developers have "creatively" flattened all the other properties in the vicinty (except the church, and it's closed for business). They've installed steel gates to keep users of the new development from easily accessing the Rotterdam. The result is inevitable.
We played there a few weeks back and, if I understand correctly, the owners have reluctantly accepted that the end is nigh and are negotiating its sale.
If it's still there on Friday, come and hear the Greeters!
I've run into the posting limit (actually, I can only see 9 posts in the last 24 hours. Programmers, eh!) so I'm adding an edit: The place is closed; our gigs are cancelled.
Last edited on Tue 15th May 2007, 3:07 pm, 1 times in total. -
Numbnut Sounds
Tue 15th May 2007, 11:39 amCan we also fight for the Drury Lane to be brought back?
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Strong Reaction
Tue 15th May 2007, 11:42 amI went down there last Weds for a beer and it was boarded up. This made me sad.
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huggy baps
Tue 15th May 2007, 11:47 amSpeed Demon wrote:
The developers have "creatively" flattened all the other properties in the vicinty (except the church, and it's closed for business). They've installed steel gates to keep users of the new development from easily accessing the Rotterdam. The result is inevitable.
We played there a few weeks back and, if I understand correctly, the owners have reluctantly accepted that the end is nigh and are negotiating its sale.
NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Tue 15th May 2007, 12:05 pm
Speed Demon wrote:
(except the church, and it's closed for business).I walked past that a few weeks ago. There's a sign attached to the front, the gist of which is people are still coming and holding their services outside the church since it was closed down against their will. I'm not a Christian but I found that very moving.
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Osama Bin Rockin'
Tue 15th May 2007, 12:12 pmDeluded fools! If they'd just researched their bibles instead of going for all this "blind faith" crap they'd know the true church of the historical distortion we call Jesus Christ lies within, not in some building!
Osama says - "If you can't beat 'em, shoot 'em"
I'm not too sure about this Grace Jones fella, the Menendo I knew would have thrown Carcass albums at them.
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tenrabbits
Tue 15th May 2007, 12:33 pmSpeed Demon wrote:
They've installed steel gates to keep users of the new development from easily accessing the Rotterdam.I think it's more likely they've installed steel gates to keep users of the rotterdam from easily accessing the new development (which would no doubt be swimming in piss relatively quickly otherwise).
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3cigarettes
Tue 15th May 2007, 3:53 pmOsama Bin Rockin' wrote:
I'm not too sure about this Grace Jones fella, the Menendo I knew would have thrown Carcass albums at them.
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abze
Tue 15th May 2007, 4:09 pm54 Pilot Street and No’s 19-22 Princes Dock Street,
Belfast,
Proposed demolition of existing 2no public houses and construction of 58no private
apartments above 2no replacement public houses with basement carpark.http://www.planningni.gov.uk/Devel_Control/council_schedules/newtownabbey/Newtonabbey_A110507.pdf
Last edited on Tue 15th May 2007, 4:14 pm, 1 times in total. -
Tue 15th May 2007, 4:11 pm
absolute cúnts
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smittennn
Tue 15th May 2007, 4:30 pmit's a sad truth that the realistic legacy of 'peace' in Belfast/NI has been rampant Property Development that is UNsypathetic to heritage and first-time buying, cetra.
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whosbainejakey
Tue 15th May 2007, 7:18 pmWell, they didn't have to sell up.
It shall be missed.
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Tue 15th May 2007, 9:11 pm
The bloke that bought it a few years ago is a property developer, he just rented it out. I wonder if the Merchant will be turned into apartments?
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Dirty Stevie Grizz
Tue 15th May 2007, 10:10 pmive never been to the rotterdam, but have always heard great stories and reviews about it. Shame.
There is also a rumour about my local, The Beechill Inn which is making me sad currently...
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gl2200
Wed 16th May 2007, 1:00 amsmittennn wrote:
it's a sad truth that the realistic legacy of 'peace' in Belfast/NI has been rampant Property Development that is UNsypathetic to heritage and first-time buying, cetra.What the Luftwaffe and the paramilitaries weren't able to destroy, C21st capitalism will.
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GrahamSmith
Wed 16th May 2007, 11:55 amI have had some great nights in this bar over the past year (I was a late comer to discovering it), such a shame to see it go
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churchwarden
Wed 16th May 2007, 12:51 pm..and here is Chris Roddy's interview with the Vacuum about the rotterdam..
http://www.thevacuum.org.uk/issues/issues0120/issue03/is03artpinpla.html
Anyone remember the name of the BBC NI TV series that was filmed at the rotterdam - think it only got as far as a single pilot episode.. something about an undertakers...?
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Wed 16th May 2007, 12:56 pm
Has Chris Roddy promised the Rotterdam to three developers at the same time?
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trixie sidebottom
Wed 16th May 2007, 5:29 pmRe: Vacuum article - perhaps the bit with Chris Roddy is interesting, but you have to wade through Daniel Jewesbury's pretentious, turgid drivel. I lost the will to live before I finished the second sentence.
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Wed 16th May 2007, 8:32 pm
Ok KingMob.. thats two funnys in the one thread.
quit whilst you're ahead.
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all-is-vanity
Wed 16th May 2007, 11:28 pmIt's truly a sorry story for public houses in Northern Ireland. My lifelong sobriety aside one can't help but feel they are a home away from home, completely at ease in them...except for the toilets.
When you compare Belfast to major cities in England, it's fairly self evident that we have a fraction of what they do. Go to the corner of most roads in Cities like Liverpool and Birmingham and you'll find a closed public house, but at least they're still fucking standing...
I say we get down to Baird's and hire their biggest fucking P.A. Glenn/Grace/Menendo/Goat/Grohl can bring the openside juggernaut and carcass albums...sit down there every day during (de)construction and whack it up to 11 or sthg...
On a different note, nothing beats sitting in front of a fire in a pub with a drink in your hand, do any pubs actually make fires anymore, or are they solely used for insurance purposes these days?!
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Thu 17th May 2007, 10:06 am
The Rotterdam's fires were class and always a bone of contention. When I worked there we were gettin constant warning letters about the smoke in a smoke free zone. Then you'd get punters complaining, despite permanently sitting in a bluish Cheech and Chong style haze of sweet smelling ganja smog. Good times.
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tinpot anto
Thu 17th May 2007, 10:13 amA open fire changes 75% of the air in a room every hour, helps keep it circulating and is generally a good thing, especially in a smoky pub.
Those crapdogs in the aparments around Clarendon Dock are the most complainingest hoors in Belfast. They have consistently been able to block all sorts of music events, outdoor festivals and generally have everything their own sterilised way for years now.
Did someone mention that one of the residents was particularly well connected in BCC?
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deadman MBE
Thu 17th May 2007, 10:18 amThis is very sad news. Unfortunately developers in Belfast have a complete disregard for buildings with character & historical significance. If any effort whatsoever were made it would be perfectly possible for development & built heritage to co-exist.
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poppy
Thu 17th May 2007, 10:51 amDoes anyone know who bought it? I'd appreciate any leads at all on this and it's pretty important that I find out asap, trust me.
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Thu 17th May 2007, 1:46 pm
The last person to own it was Bill Woosely of Beannachor, he bought it just over 2 years ago and as far as I know just rented it out since. The building itself isn't worth 50p in material terms, it's the licence and the entertainments licence to play in the square that were worth something. There are also historical artifacts in the attic(chains that were used to tie the prisioners up etc) There was only one objection lodged to the concerts and rumour had it that it was someone in Building Control, although this is unfounded.
What's equally worrying is that the planning application says "2 public houses" which would probably mean Pat's Bar also.
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ResidualMicky
Thu 17th May 2007, 6:49 pmYup, Pat's is going too. As for the Rott, it stopped trading on Tuesday and the fixtures and fittings were taken out yesterday. The lads only found out on Monday - I was in on Sunday night and all was well. It's a damn shame. As far as I know, Wolsey has sold it on to developer made up of several "high profile" business types.
www.nbmcmedia.com/rott - Petition to save the building.
www.myspace.com/savetherotterdam - Go add it.
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Thu 17th May 2007, 8:18 pm
Compared to most other British cities Belfast really takes the cake for being the most visually gormless.
The perpetual building of the following type of new building is making Belfast look more and more crap each day.
The Rotterdam will no doubt be replaced with a monstrosity similiar to this:
(I probably spent more time on MSPAINT making this plan than whichever idiot architects are creating these visual holocausts)
I fúcking hate how the Council are repeatedly allowing this sort of shít to be built.
Last edited on Thu 17th May 2007, 8:27 pm, 2 times in total. -
Thu 17th May 2007, 8:21 pm
thats the best picture i've seen in ages!
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chrisjedijane
Fri 18th May 2007, 12:33 am"Gormless windows"
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Fri 18th May 2007, 1:13 am
3cigarettes wrote:
Please attach this to several spurious planning permission requests and forward it to the BCC multiple times.
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Fri 18th May 2007, 9:00 am
That's the funniest thing I've seen all week, cheers!
It's basically a conversation I had with Daithi about a month ago, in a picture
lol
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Fri 18th May 2007, 9:10 am
It's nice to see someone actually creating something on here.. and a damn accurate creation too..
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Fri 18th May 2007, 9:26 am
I think this should be made into posters and flyers and distributed freely. Nail on the head man.
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Pix
Fri 18th May 2007, 9:33 amRight on. Those 'luxury' places are NOT nice to live in once you realise they're built of cardbord and gob, believe me.
I'm sad there wasn't even a last hooley allowed, that may have comforted people somewhat. I'd have liked a last jaegar.
Probably closed up so quickly to save the yuppies from the hideous noisy, happy tipsy people enjoying themselves on a summer's eve.
I'm sick of Belfast tunring into a glass-n-cheap-chrome bore.
long live the rott
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Fri 18th May 2007, 1:55 pm
The only thing to add to that pic would be to shade one of the top corners and write "Insert insipid glass atrium/B&Q teak cladding here*"
*delete as inappropriate
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Fri 18th May 2007, 4:00 pm
I am surprised the long shut menagerie has not disappeared to be replaced by apartments of the style outlined above...
There have been a few decent refurbishments, the old Lamont Factory Buliding at Stranmillis roundabout has kept its character, hopefully Ormeau Bakery will keep its facade - the destruction of the Curzon was a real loss to how the Ormeau Road looked
Hopefully the strange pre-war buildings in Shaftesbury Square will survive
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Micksimus
Sun 20th May 2007, 1:43 pmI was told that there is a new bar being built on the site of the apartments. I think that the owner of Pat's Bar is gonna be running it. I suppose posh apartment types need somewhere to drink too, cocktail for anyone???
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Mon 21st May 2007, 11:58 am
It's simply horrible that the Rotterdam will be "replaced".
Look at the horror around London because the Cutty Sark got torched. The Rotterdam is probably just as historically important to maritime history as that boat, but it's in Belfast, so it's OK to flatten it!
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T Entertainment
Mon 21st May 2007, 12:06 pmHang on, this is definitely based on Phil 'millions' Crossey's city centre pad!
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Mon 21st May 2007, 12:41 pm
someone wrote:
The Rotterdam is probably just as historically important to maritime history as that boat, but it's in Belfast, so it's OK to flatten it!The rotterdam was a great bar, but it is not as important, in historical terms, as the Cutty Sark - it is not the last bar of its type, or the site of any great historical event - it was just a good bar - much better than the bland "stylish" theme-bars that are taking over Belfast - but claiming it has a world wide historical significance is pushing the borders of reality and common sense a bit far
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Mon 21st May 2007, 12:55 pm
Meh It's historically significant to me. I can't remember having any nights of awesome random drunkeness on an oul boat
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zebulon
Mon 21st May 2007, 1:12 pmWhile I'm sure there's very little of world wide historical significance in Belfast, I'd have opined that a pre-famine building used for holding prisoners due for transportation to the colonies, that actually still contains the shackles (etc.) used might just hold some historical significance for Belfast itself if not the UK.
Perhaps someone just couldn't afford to lodge an application for listed status, or perhaps some could afford to loose an application for listed status.
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Nules
Mon 21st May 2007, 2:08 pmHello, I saw the recent news storey that there is a great deal of controversy and protests about the demolition of Pats Bar. I can confirm tha its true and have seen the plans for the new 12 storey apartment building. Pats Bar and the Rotterdam will be replaced with two ground floor pubs which are more modern and comply with fire regs!!
I hope this puts your minds to rest. -
Mon 21st May 2007, 2:10 pm
There are quite a few historical buildings in Belfast that ought to be preserved in some way - I was merely questioning the status of the rotterdam in comparison to the Cutty Sark...
In a perfect world, the Ulster Architectural Heritage Society and other bodies would have enough money to subsidise the renovation of these buildings so they could still be used.. but architecture comes way down the list of public concerns - so it's more bland NEXT/Starbucks/WH Smiths/Dixons..
..and I am sure there must be somethinig of world wide significance from Belfast...
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Mon 21st May 2007, 2:16 pm
to be honest the only concern was how many apartments could be built on the site and how quickly and cheaply could this be done. When I designed the new building I wasnt even briefed on the historical value. Just shows that business does not care about historical value. Perhaps the Architectural Heritage Service would have thrown in their pennieworth but its too little too late, they probably dont have the budget for legal fees or renovation so theyre keeping theyre noses out! I dont think its right thats how business goes! Very simply
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Mon 21st May 2007, 2:20 pm
the new building looks scarily like t-entertainments rough doodle up there. thats basically what it will be like except with two bars on the ground floor and underground parking.
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Mon 21st May 2007, 2:30 pm
It wasn't T-ents, it was mine!
And if that atrocity does get built, I'm going to egg it.
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Mon 21st May 2007, 2:40 pm
I think you should be an Architectural Technician! lol
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Mon 21st May 2007, 3:19 pm
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Mon 21st May 2007, 3:22 pm
churchwarden wrote:
..and I am sure there must be somethinig of world wide significance from Belfast...I'm sure too, and not many of them seem to have any permanent museum-type momument either....
=(
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captain a
Mon 21st May 2007, 8:18 pmsince the smoking ban came in down south, something horrific like 900 (not an exageration) small local/rural bars have sold up and shut down in the rural area's. relatively big towns like letterkenny mop up the licences and open bars in town that look like hairdressers. thats 900 bars in 26 counties. if the trend continues in the 6 counties you can expect to lose around 200 rural establishments in the coming two or three years.
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King Canute
Mon 21st May 2007, 9:16 pmwe lose them because people just stop going there.
Why should these places stay open if no one wants to go there?
Darwinian economics, survival of the profitable innit? -
Mon 21st May 2007, 10:57 pm
captain a wrote:
since the smoking ban came in down south, something horrific like 900 (not an exageration) small local/rural bars have sold up and shut down in the rural area's. relatively big towns like letterkenny mop up the licences and open bars in town that look like hairdressers. thats 900 bars in 26 counties. if the trend continues in the 6 counties you can expect to lose around 200 rural establishments in the coming two or three years.But on the upside whiny people get their god given right to impose their beliefs on everyone!
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Mon 21st May 2007, 10:57 pm
someone wrote:
we lose them because people just stop going there.
Why should these places stay open if no one wants to go there?
Darwinian economics, survival of the profitable innit?well yeah, but its a government policy thats stopped people wanting to go there, as opposed to a majority of people used to go there saying "please can we not smoke in our rural local". its not like that culture was on its last legs pre-smoking ban..
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Tue 22nd May 2007, 11:16 am
captain a wrote:
since the smoking ban came in down south, something horrific like 900 (not an exageration) small local/rural bars have sold up and shut down in the rural area's. relatively big towns like letterkenny mop up the licences and open bars in town that look like hairdressers. thats 900 bars in 26 counties. if the trend continues in the 6 counties you can expect to lose around 200 rural establishments in the coming two or three years.I think I read somewhere that a large whack of wee pubs down south what have closed down since the ban were in border towns; punters just had to walk 50 yards downt road across border to be able to have a feg inside. the smoking ban here now will maybe balance that out a bit. I don't think this is a trend that will happen up here tbh.
Sorry to be mean but I'm finding it hard to believe that Nute is a real-life architect
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dirty stevie smitty
Tue 22nd May 2007, 6:04 pmSaliortown had the heart of it ripped out over 20 years ago, and has never recovered. There's no doubt in my mind, that whole carry on with the Catholic Church running down St Joseph's sits side by side with what else is going on around the area and developers tearing down what else is left.
It breaks my heart to see one of the most important historical areas in Belfast be turned into a souless mess of new aprtment blocks. The Dockers club will be the only thing standing, that represents old Saliortown.
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Tue 22nd May 2007, 6:18 pm
I wonder how long before places like Kelly's Cellars and the other all too few proper pubs go the way of the Rotty. If you go out in most english town centres of similar size to belfast, it's a singularly depressing experience - all chain pubs (slug and lettuce, O'Neills, Lloyds, Wetherspoons etc etc) with as much feeling as a dead horse.
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Wed 23rd May 2007, 7:13 am
Kelly's is listed, and is doing a roaring trade as are most of the other Alley pubs.
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Ludwig
Thu 24th May 2007, 8:14 pmThe Rotterdam's demise had eff all to do with a smoking ban!!
Go sign the petition and air your views...
and if you want to write a letter to Mr Savage at the Planning Dept., Bedford House, Bedford Street. Belfastthen it should include the following detail:
--------------------------------------
Date:
Name:
Address:
RE: PLANNING PROPOSAL Z/ 2007/1024/F ADDRESSED AS 54 PILOT ST, BELFAST. FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE ROTTERDAM BAR.TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
I HERBY PLACE MY OBJECTION TO THE PROPOSED DEMOLITION OF THE ROTTERDAM BAR.
I do not however object to the sympathetic incorporation of the existing premises into any proposed development.
***This next bit is optional - but if you are going to write your own then make it a valid argument... and not "i met my girlfriend there..." or similar.***
My objection is directly concerned with the premises housing The Rotterdam Bar.
This is a building with a history that includes it’s use as a prison or holding centre for ‘criminals’ being sent to Van Deimens Land (Tazmania) in the late 18th and early 19th Centuries. The building is one of the last remaining embodiments of the strong maritime tradition in this area of Belfast known as Sailortown.
The Rotterdam Bar has also developed a strong musical, cultural identity as many of the local artists who have done well internationally have honed their craft on it’s hallowed stage. It is not solely a ‘music venue’ but is also regarded as the spiritual home of Belfast’s original musicians… a bar where all the good and the great and sometimes the not so great, socialised and networked together. This is Belfast’s Cavern Club - a musicians ‘Mecca’.
The building has a unique internal structure. The downstairs bar has two odd shaped brick pillars, a superb stone floor and a wonderful low ceiling. There is a wealth of character in the ‘nooks and crannies’ of this odd shaped place. To quote one previous owner: “There isn’t a right-angle in the place”. It is truly unique.
The National Trust and the Environment and Heritage Service need to present a case that The Rotterdam Bar is worth incorporating into any potential development of that site. It could be viewed as a valuable asset and indeed a ‘draw’ to those who wish to live in any of the new dwellings planned for the area.
No matter how much development goes on around this building – it should be kept for our future musicians… some of whom were already cutting their teeth on that hallowed stage when the closure of the bar occurred.
The Rotterdam (fully restored, cared for and properly managed as a music bar) would be an asset to any development due to its historical, maritime, cultural and musical heritage remaining preserved and unaltered. This would be a vibrant tourist attraction!
Signed:………………….
-------------------------------------------You can pass this on... the more letters they receive, the less they can ignore this... let them know that their game is up.
DON'T FORGET TO SIGN ITHope this helps!
My debut post on Fastfude and it had to be this!
Ludwig -
Fri 25th May 2007, 9:12 am
The big problem is that regardless of whether the fabric of the building is kept or not, it's days as a music venue are over.
Given the history of local objections to granting licenses for any events in Clarendon dock, can you really see the bar getting a regular Entertainment License when the complainers are upstairs from it?
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Tue 29th May 2007, 4:40 pm
The Rotterdam may not be as important to the world at large as the Cutty Sark but its one of the few bits of history we have left in Belfast! We'll soon be sitting like work happy robots sipping generic cocktails in identical steel and wood corporate bars all over the city
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nibands.co.uk
Tue 29th May 2007, 5:11 pmThe Rotterdam is most definately in the top ten spots in Belfast. Yes its small, yes its ten minutes walk from the city centre, yes there are some great sopts right in the centre, but come on its just one of those places thats always been there. I played a couple of gigs in it when i had the band, the atmosphere Rocks, and the beer is excellent..
Save the Rotterdam !
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