1. avatar glzebub of four star
    hi, the good people at iden green are buried up to their asses in recording at the moment. we are encountering some technical hitches even at such embryonic stages. i know most of you have considerable expertise recording guitar/bass/drums before so i may as well try me luck,

    we have a shure SM57 and SM58 dynamics and Behringer B1 condenser for our three good mics. amps we have a trace elliot speed twin 50W valve combo into a marshall 2X12, we have H+K and Fender amps also but we don't use them for recording cos they're not as good. we have many, many guitars and fx boxes and rack mountable goodies also. oh and two mixers and an Akai digital 12 recorder. and a set of drum mics.

    we're getting the guitars 'o.k.' but i would just like to know what y'all would do in our situation to really nail as good a tone as possible. in particular what the fcuk to do with the mics and stuff like that.

    bass, we have a good sounding bass but the amp sucks balls. it is a 70's H+H 150W(i think) 4 channel PA head into two handbuilt 2X12 cabinets (not designed for bass at all). on days it is passable, other days, mmm, yeah it's that whole ball-sucking thing again.
    how , if possible do we get a good sound, re using avaiable mics etc...
  2. avatar EPK
    Well, I told you to experiment with mike positions, particularly off axis, at a moderate distance, and round the back of the amp (if it is open back).
    Use headphones and vary the mike position, you'll hear a huge difference in tone depending on where the mike is placed. Make sure it ain't too loud, get away from the amp whilst someone else plays guitar, and the nuances of mid-range will be revealed.
    The bass straight in via a DI box'll sound much better.
    I really wouldn't recommend the H&H.
    They were keek even in the 70s.
  3. avatar no coffee no workee
    What drum mikes you got?

    Get the best possible sound from your guitar amp, then move about til you find the sweet spot in the room and try putting a mic (the B1 poss.) there.
    Put the 57 up close to the edge of the speaker cone, pointing towards the dust cap and try blending the two signals to see what it sounds like.
    Try the Fender too, esp if it has only one speaker.

    If it sounds right, it is right.
    A trick I've used for bass is to use a bass od/dist pedal with a small amount of dirt on the DI line.
    It makes it sound more like an amp sound.
    (Courtesy RATM, Marshall Guv pedal used for THAT bass sound, apparently)
  4. avatar feline1
    Yes but in 1978/79, Warren Cann of ULTRAVOX! used to play his Roland TR77 drum machine through his H&H amp live on stage. Apparently it was completely ahine.
  5. avatar glzebub of four star
    thank you for your advice, we await the return of mr.mccauley of fallout, then we will give it all another go.
    what's all this about bass DI ing? ye wha? how does one do such a thing and does it sound good, like a good recorded bass amp sound?
  6. avatar EPK
    It can do. What I'd recommend as a cheaper version of Podness....a DI with amp simulation,including overdrive...is one of the Sansamp guitar pedals that should still be knocking around.
    I was talking about them with Morphsville on another thread.
  7. avatar Pete
    Yup, Sans Amp bass driver is the bees knees. A mate of mine had one and I used to borrow it everynow and again (until the DI output of my Ashdown replaced it).

    Classically its best to record a direct signal from the bass [i]and[/i] mic the cab, blending the two to get the best of both worlds (hence the pre and post outputs of the Bass Pod Pro).

    But even a standard passive DI should do a better job than just throwing a mic infront of that H+H amp!?! A good D.I. box is a handy thing to have, infact its good to have a few of them.

    The SansAmp box is expensive (£120) from memory, but you can get a basic DI box for under £20 and Behringer do a pretty good active one for about £30.
  8. avatar glzebub of four star
    i will look into this DI box/Sansamp thing. we're considering an amp at the moment. it's a trace elliot 300W head of some sort i'm not sure which.

    our drum mics? i think are called superlux, they're a fairly budget set but we do have a £110 sennheiser snare mic.

    further experimentation is to be undertaken........
  9. avatar Niall Harden
    meh to all of this.
    i just want to try things with what we've got and see what sounds best.
  10. avatar EPK
    If you make up yer mind, I've tracked down someone I know who has a Sansamp pedal he'll willing to sell for the piffling amount off about £50.
  11. avatar Pete
    Tell you what Eamonn, if those boys aren't interested I would be. The preamp and DI on the Ashdown is good, but its a pain in the ass to cart around if its just for recording.

    And I would encourage people to look at the Ashdown amps before buying Trace. Ashdown was set up by the guy who started Trace Elliot, but left to start the new company when Gibson bought them out. So an Ashdown is basically a Trace, only slightly cheaper and to me there's less fuckin about required to get a good sound.

    Hell, I run mine with the EQ flat with just a little of the sub-bass, when needed, to add that little extra. Means I can use the EQ to tune the sound to the room, rather than create my sound.
  12. avatar zebulon
    Yeah, but the Trace Elliots have those cool green stripes.
  13. avatar Pete
    Which are complete overshadowed by the glowing orange VU meters of the Ashdowns!!
  14. avatar zebulon
    Oh!
    Bass Amplifiers in Sectarianism Shocker!
    Wait 'til the Sunday World hears about this!

    But sure what would I know, use a 30 year old Marshall.
    Jack Bruce-a-go-go.
  15. avatar EPK
    Manky Scots git-a go-go.
    I'll have a word with 'im about the Sansamp, Morphsville Peter.
  16. avatar glzebub of four star
    the Sansamp is indeed top! now, here's me, i was wondering if there is any distinct advantages/disadvantages of playing through two twelve inch speakers as opposed to four. i'm kinda thinkin' of getting a marshall 50W valve head and either use my 2X12 or convert it to a 4X12, is buying two other speakers worth it then? the amp i'm thinking of is a JCM2000 DSL50.
  17. avatar Niall Harden
    thinking, surely?

    muh.. the sansamp has a few crackly switches, and needs a bit of pesuasion ometimes, but you (indeed, "one") can get some great sounds out of it. which is nice.
  18. avatar EPK
    Being probably ten years or more old, I'm not surprised about the crackly switches...a bit of contact cleaner should sort that out.
  19. avatar Niall Harden
    't did
  20. avatar glzebub of four star
    it did niall, it did.

    anyway.....

    yes but my four speaker/two speaker decision hell!!!
    (i know)

    niall, i'm going to pull your head off.


    ps
    :hat
  21. avatar Niall Harden
    next time you play me at pro evolution soccer
    you are going DOWN
  22. avatar Pete
    hmmmm, speakers. I've always had a theory/way of thinking about speaker cabs. It may be completely wrong.

    According to the reasoning in my head, the more speakers you have the harder the amp has to work, so for the same volume you get a more saturated sound. That is, you don't need to crank it as much to get the tone. Is this right?

    I'm an engineer, I should actually know this kind of stuff. But I'll stick to aeroplanes, they're easier.

    Anyhow, what I know for a fact is that for setups I've heard, a 4x12 is better than a 2x12. And the same for basses, a 4x10 is better than a 15 everytime. And an 8x10 is better still.

    I can but dream.
  23. avatar Niall Harden
    [img]http://www.daniel-online.org/verkehrsflugzeuge/homepage/Boeing%20727/AODB727D.jpg[/img]
  24. avatar Pete
    [img]http://aerofiles.com/bomba-crj700.jpg[/img]
  25. avatar EPK
    I see you broke the wings.
    Too big for the garage...eh?
    Some designer you are........!
  26. avatar glzebub of four star
    so you would all rather have four speakers than two any day of the week yes? apart from it being more of a bitch to transport.
  27. avatar ClayPeterFace
    i always thought that fewer speakers were better for recording because all the power of the amp is going through one speaker, so you get a more concentrated sound.

    This is very probably completely wrong, though.
  28. avatar EPK
    I'm not so sure you ever need the power of the amp that much. It's the tonal qualities that you want to capture.
  29. avatar glzebub of four star
    is it more detailed/dynamic or something?
  30. avatar Pete
    here's an idea... try and get the hold of a 4x12 cab and compare the two!? Everyone will have their own tastes and opinons, only you can decide which you prefer.

    I learnt this the hard way, god knows how many amps and basses I've been through having purely gone on other peoples opinions.
  31. avatar no coffee no workee
    Shouldn't really matter how many speakers you use as long as the o/p resistance (load) from the amp matches the the speakers i/p resistance.
    If you do you sums and wire the speakers in a mix of series and parallel to make the recommended load you'll not over stress your amp.
    As far as recording goes, I've found nine times out of ten a single speaker works better.
    This is due to the fact that if you mike from a bit away, say 18", you'll pick up the sound from all the speakers and it can cause phasing probs.
    8x10 bass cabs look great and sound great, but a 1x15 is better to record with.
    In my opinion...
    Backlash?
    You don't know what you're talking about?
    My 4x10 sounds the bomb, etc, etc...
  32. avatar Pete
    Actually, I've seen that phase problem happen when recording. We ended up doing the overdriven guitars on our album with a wee 15watt vox amp with just a single 10" speaker.

    And I always D.I. the bass when recording
    :p
  33. avatar Suki Monster
    A 4x12 cabinet will have a lot more bottom end than a 2x12 you will feel the ground shake with the right amp.
  34. avatar no coffee no workee
    DI feeds always sound a bit too tame for my liking.
    There's more character from the guitar/amp/speaker interaction, but that's just my taste in low frequencies.
    On a plus point the amp/speaker will naturally compress the sound better than an external compressor on the DI feed. I haven't used a DI for the mix in ages. (Even though I'll cover my a$$ by recording one).

    A 4x12 will sound louder than a 2x12, with the amp at the same volume, because you're using four channels instead of two.
    Huge volume does not necessarily make for good recordings.
    But great gigs...
  35. avatar feline1
    Yes but JJ Burnel used to play bass guitar through a Marshall 4x12,
    and all the speakers blew, and that's why his bass sounds so incredible on "Rattus Norvegicus" and suchlike.

    By the "80s", he'd replaced it with a "proper" amp with all the speakers "fixed" and it sounded wick.
    "Go figure" etc etc
  36. avatar Pete
    It depends on the bass, some DI better than others. My music man stingray sounds great DI'd, the Precision don't.

    Having said that, I use the DI output of the Ashdown a lot, so there is a preamp stage infront of it.