In Stores now.
Packed full of stuff galore.
Red Organ Seprent Sound
Sons and Daughters
Plus wonderful columns from [b]Griswold[/b], [b]Bo Fabulous[/b], [b]Weapon's Training[/b] and [b]Chewin' the Fat[/b] as well as our regular bag of [b]reviews[/b],[b] news[/b] and [b]previews[/b] and a gorgeously reworked [b]Incoming[/b] section.
[img]http://www.alternativeulster.com/magazine/Aucover13%20big.jpg[/img] Edited by: Jonny Tiernan at: 9/11/04 5:28 pm
We're running a pretty timely caption comp on the site this month.
I've put the pic below for those who are too lazy to go to the site.
Bush - "I came running over cuz i thought i heard war drums!"
"maybe music is more interesting and relevant than politics"
"Brian from the secret service commended himself on blending in well..."
"A well-known liar 'drumming up' support for his cause, yesterday."
Edited by: JenniferLoveWabsnazm at: 9/11/04 6:34 pm
or "Sod off Bush, there's only one support act allowed for black artists visiting Belfast."
Before someone suggests "George of the Jungle" I'm going to point out that this would be extremely racist and just as unfunny as what's already been suggested here.
Do you ever cover more rock orientated artists or instrumentalists?
If you were interested I could perhaps get you interviews with some guys... Edited by: Seulement encore at: 9/11/04 10:05 pm
Dubyah - "Yur nice guys but I still won't allow you to vote, just in case".
"Smirking, smug b*stard 'sticks the beat in' to those he f*cked over in a recent power struggle".
Desperate Public Front for money men "drums up" support from any quarter to save face and stay in power?
Failed business numpty floated by dodgy family connections claims false affinity with music, humans, in order to inflate ego, dick.
eamonn, roger and nana.
you are a disgrace, that's the most pathetic, childish collection of digs i've read on here in a long time (and let's face it, there's been a lot of s*it). i thought you lot would know better....that'll learn me.
it'd be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
the grown ups here know there's two sides to every story.
seriously, get on with yer lives and wise up.
Edited by: colourmetickled at: 9/11/04 10:34 pm
since Roger owns this site I should think he can say what he bloody well likes, mr anon.
"Egocentric fop unveils latest selection of spastics to do his bidding/dirty work, today".
Colourmetickled, I really am curious as to what the other side of this debate is, and I genuinely ask to further my understanding rather than to be antagonistic. We can have this out in public if you like, as I've been on the record several times as wanting to brings the facts out into the open, or you can e-mail me. I won't even ask who you are if it makes you uncomfortable.
"I went to Graceland and all I got was this lousy African percussion ensemble."
"Suit poses with previously disregarded chaff to save ass"
I like childish and disgraceful, and I do it under my own name and all.
Next week...The Holocaust, the previously misinterpreted SS explanation, in our "Two Sides To Every Story" series...
this is unreal!
i don't know what happened with alternative ulster. no one will ever be told the one and only true account, cause everyone will warp away at the story to suit themselves.
bottom line is, i do not understand how ANYONE can justify these snide little smart arsed remarks, let alone the founder of this website or people held in high regard, like epk. whatever happened has to be left be now, surely,f or the sake of everyone's sanity?
(correct me if i'm wrong) but johnny tiernan put himself on the line back on square one, risked everything (financial security, for a start) with that magazine and in the end he made the (arguably quite bad, it's irrelevant here) calls cause they were *his to make*.
it's a big old shame so many (very VERY) talanted people got shafted, but this kinda bulls*it doesn't help.
now someone is advertising their product to the local music scene (who, remember, should care not about these politics) and all they get is a "no, you can't play here, this is *our* site, we'll just bully you every time you post" response from thsoe in charge.
seriously, why not just ban him and keep your and his dignity? and ban everyone else who you don't like while you're at it, you might as well.
this kind of sh*t is not good for yours or anybodys credibility, simple as.
[quote]"Egocentric fop unveils latest selection of [b]spastics[/b] to do his bidding/dirty work, today". [/quote]
How this thread (as part of this site) is supposed to act as an advertisement for the diversity and maturity of N.Irish music is beyond me.
But if anyone can suggest a way in which it does, please do. (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Seriously, anyone from outside looking in would find this a) hilarious and b) offensive!
I don't often post on fastude, but use it regularly as a research tool and to spread the word of the No Dancing label, but stuff like this makes me want to run away from it.
Some of you will probably say good, piss aff, but surely driving people away through these ambiguous, murky arguments is negative for the scene as a whole, non?
(PS - best reading in days though!)
Is it just me or has someone completely misinterpreted the caption competition as a dig at the person who started the thread...?
*edit* apparently I'm too naive...
Edited by: jonnydiesel at: 10/11/04 2:14 pm
I was just wondering about that too... I get the feeling colourmetickled may justbe an alter-ego for someone...
[quote]Failed business numpty floated by dodgy family connections claims false affinity with music, humans, in order to inflate ego, dick. [/quote]
I thought he meant George Bush.
Am I missing summat? (other than the obvious for all you 'wags')
What with me bein slow and all.. I've only just got the clever double meaning..
It has'nt gone away you know. Or so some geezer with a beard said once.
Thank god I'm in London on days like these.
But it is quare funny leek.
" Hey look at us !!! our claim to fame is we've met George Bush and this picture proves it. This'll mean more gigs for sure ".
" Hey, the local biz will think we're big boys now"
"Smile guys, you know this'll get them bitching on Fastfude for sure."
'Honeslty George, can you not order in a air strike on the Debonaires, as they get all the decent gigs in Belfast?'.
[quote]"Smile guys, you know this'll get them bitching on Fastfude for sure." [/quote]
Beardy take em away from the eyes of the media and kill em
With all due respect to Colour me Tickled, this issue cuts across several interests of mine, which is why I stand where I do.
First, to ensure that anyone involved in the music industry gets the opportunity to utilise their creative talents without being manipulated or fleeced by the unscrupulous.
Second, the issue of individual and employment rights, as I've been involved in Trade Union affairs for many years.
Third, the developmentof the music industry on stable ground, to ensure growth for the future.
In this case, the creative talents of some of the best brains we have in the sector were disgracefully raped and manipulated, whilst they were kept in the dark about what was going on.
When they found out, voiced their concerns and asked to spaeak about it, they were ignored and their obvious talents, which brought a national award, were ridiculed.
The treatment which followed bears close resemblance to the methodology of Rupert Murdoch in his regard for staff, and the gutted result touted as the same vehicle.
This injustice which has been done will not go away because we wish it to.
It's a disgrace that this is being done in public, but, as all attempts to do it in private have been ignored, this is unfortunately the course of last resort.
In weighing up the arguments, there is very little contest, as the people involved are vital constituent parts of the local scene, impeccable in their integrity, selfless in their dedication and efforts, and the insinuation that they're the manipulators is offensive.
Let's not forget the people involved are [i]professional[/i] journalists, musicians, and the founder of this site, whose integrity comes second to none for myself, and all who have met him.
For me it's a matter of conscience. My conscience won't ever permit me to buy the results of such an injustice.
I cannot stay silent over that injustice.
Sorry for that.
Edited by: Eamonn P Keyes at: 10/11/04 2:10 pm
The sum total of this is that the rest of the board is left with a WTF?
Do you wanna start a campaign up to boycott AU?
Then publicise the facts and state the case.
These snidey wee digs are alienating and exclusive.
Well, okay, I would have been happy doing this in private, but…
If you don’t know what happened to Alternative Ulster how can you say there are two sides to the story? Then you go on to make other claims based upon what at the very least must be a working hypothesis of events. Please either let us know who you are, or furnish us with your full understanding of the situation, and how you came to compile this understanding. The suggestion that people are warping the account to suit themselves is insulting in the extreme when you think about the individuals involved. That there will never be ‘one true account’ seems to suggest that it’s just a big old misunderstanding. I assure you, nothing could be further from the truth.
I know attempts to tell it in the past have started a debate about whether someone is credible or not, and descended into arguments of semantics. In this context the whole ‘ah, no one will ever really know’ is a smokescreen. It plays into the hands of those who would rather not have that discussion. Under the current circumstances, it seems to me neutrality is just a cloak under which people think they can enter the debate and throw in their tuppence.
While I suspect it’s not intentional, some of your language is potentially incendiary in the context of the AU debate, some of it touches very raw nerves with regard to what has gone on. This, again, can pour petrol on the fire with regard to people’s responses.
Some very VERY talented people feel like they’ve been cheated and lied to since day one. They feel like they really stuck their neck out for something just to be totally shafted. The posts on this thread only go one per cent of the way to illustrating the anger they feel. The fact that they are coming from people not usually prone to such outbursts isn’t so much an indication of how childish or immature they’re being, more that they are still incensed at what has gone on, and is still happening. Trust me, snide remarks are the least of transgressions in the context of the whole story.
As for ownership of the magazine, some other people (principally myself and Iona) went broke in the process. And found the door slammed in their faces. We left with nothing. Well, that’s not true, our names were slandered, our professionalism questioned and our hard work belittled on the way out. But if we’re concentrating on finances, I think it’ll be a while before either of us is in a position to forget about Alternative Ulster. Though personally I’m gratified that the editorial structures I put in place have kept going this long after I left. This may be because the editorial report I compiled, which I remember being rubbished at the time, now seems to have formed the backbone of what the magazine is today.
Collectively, Alternative Ulster was built upon people’s creativity. Their time, effort, and in some cases money, went towards making it what it is. You can imagine their annoyance when that creativity was gambled on more than one occasion. In the end, those who had helped build the house were suddenly locked outside in the cold, while inside total strangers were living it up.
Now, anyone can advertise anything they want here on FF (though it’s Roger’s site at the end of the day, so down to him), but they gotta expect feedback, be it good or bad. As well as being a billboard it’s a forum for airing grievances and calling people to task. It can’t be all sweetness and light all the time, because that just isn’t the Northern Ireland music scene. And while the advert was fine, I believe this only started when the caption competition raised its head. I mean, come on, what did you expect? (Btw, I’m still not 100 per cent sure that those aren’t genuine captions for the pic, and people haven’t just reversed into the whole AU thing)
And surely what’s happened in this thread is nothing that a reasonable human being wouldn’t be able to handle. This, after all, is the media we’re talking about. It’s also wrong though to suggest the ‘politics’ started on Fastfude. It has been rumbling under for ages, and only began rising to the surface when people felt their attempts to address the problem, or eve ask reasonable questions about it, were being ignored.
I should add that if all of the above makes me feel like an angry, twisted individual I’ve done myself a disservice. Yes, I feel immensely proud of the work I did for Alternative Ulster, and possibly some level of pastoral care to those who worked there during this time, but I’ve moved on. It’s only a story I wheel out when someone asks ‘whatever happened to that magazine you were working for?’.
Final question: do you think there is a right and wrong here, or are we all sacrificing our credibility for no reason at all?
No whoa, I'm not having a go at the facts of this situation, I was filled in by EPK prior to this.
My beef is that, their is a 2 tier level of debate about it and that the people who know each other in LIFE are slyly digging away at an "In-joke" and the PLebs are
left feeling excluded.
... the above is not an entry for the caption competition, in case anyone was wondering
"Why 'ave dey blacked demselves up ta look like brothers?"
As I understand it there was at least one thread in which the facts of this debacle were laid out for all and sundry.
I imagine the thread is still there and can be viewed at your leisure.
Personnally, I would have expected to have sh|t-bombs thrown at me if I were responsible for what happened so a few quips should be the least of anyone's worries - especially those who don't know what the f*ck they're talking about.
Although I'm sure my opinion counts for feck all here.. I personally think the proof's in the pudding, and it's been fairly clear to me that the content of AU has suffered since the loss of you guys.
A great shame really.. it was kinda nice to have something locally produced that was easily on a par with national mags.
I am just allergic to "in-jokes" even when I'm in on them.
I agree with tenrabbits it has lost its edge and its a shame. Its like DNA Swamp all over again...........
'Village idiot unveils new Dangerfields line-up'
look, my point is simple:- people like phil and iona may very well have legitimate grievances with AU. but that's between them and AU and public displays like this do their case no good whatever. it is very unprofessional. At least phil and iona haven't gone so low to make such digs.
my problem is not with them (two hugely talanted individuals, clearly, who will hoepfully get everything they deserve) but with that group of people involved with the bitch-fest SECRET MESSAGE BOARDS once associated with the mag (who are now ironically/hypocritically calling for transparency!!). for them this is the latest in a long line of witch hunts which previously targeted NIMIC, the NIMIC mag, oh yeah, brightstar, a raindeer section gig for having a vip section (big fu(king deal!), snow patrol generally, and local radio stations for not playing enough sh1te front page bands...
as i said, this is between phil, iona and AU. lets keep it that way. enough with the muck spreading and the whispering campaigns, people. lets grow up a little.
Edited by: colourmetickled at: 10/11/04 6:19 pm
The other side of this coin is that if you are going to slabber about stuff then at least have the balls to show yourself.
There are a few anonymous posters on this thread.
Exactly, moaning about transparency.
Do I have to be in Secret Squirrel gang to know who Nana Karina is?
theres only one keyboardist in the debonaires, right?
[quote]...latest in a long line of witch hunts which previously targeted NIMIC, the NIMIC mag, oh yeah, brightstar, a raindeer section gig for having a vip section (big fu(king deal!), snow patrol generally, and local radio stations for not playing enough sh1te front page bands.[/quote]
You mean Northern Ireland Syndrome !
Edited by: Gripper Magee at: 10/11/04 5:16 pm
Jesus, my identity is hardly a secret.
He has more faces than a rhombus, that Nana one.............. Mild mannered keyboardist by day, but mild mannered keyboardist by night!!!!
Wait, that doesn't work! Oh well, continue discussion.
[quote]...latest in a long line of witch hunts which previously targeted NIMIC, the NIMIC mag, oh yeah, brightstar, a raindeer section gig for having a vip section (big fu(king deal!), snow patrol generally, and local radio stations for not playing enough sh1te front page bands.[/quote]
Even after being on the sharp end of a few of those above I would like to categorically state that I am not Colour Me Tickled. I've never had a use for anonymous usernames so the twat emailing me a running update on this thread can quit it.
That's it people release the anger.
let's all just have a w**k. The best way to release the anger methinks. If we all start in five minutes, put up a post if you finish first.
That's not fair, I've had three today already!
Chris, there's a difference between taking a pee and wánking. Edited by: Eamonn Evangelists at: 10/11/04 5:57 pm
Well, I'm having to tease mine out in work, so I think I have the harder (!) job I believe.
You're assuming I'm at home.
Yes, but you're in the BBC, and paid to do it professionally.
At this moment I'm fantasizing you are at home. Have we done enough yet to calm everyone down? I'm flagging.
I *am* off today, as it happens.
But I'm not at home. I'm in the Welcome To Belfast Centre on Donegall Place.
Are they still posting links to high-class prostitutes on their website?
Good as place as any.
T, do you normally welcome people to Belfast with a one handed milkshake? No wonder tourisim is at an all time low.................
What has happened to the idea of the new music magazine - various people mentioned it was called "11" and was in the pipeline when the AU troubles started a while ao, but haven't heard anything about it lately
In my land, it is rude not to greet visitors in this way.
We call it the 'act of ffftannngg' and there is great rejoicing.
You know, I'm not sure "revelling in the bean shower of lyndsay" is listed as a cultural experience. Should be tho..............
"Secret Rooms" exist all over the Ezboard network,for whatever purpose, but they're only secret when no-one knows about them.
However, the "secret" room you're alluding to actually trawled publicly for membership here on Fastfude.
What isn't secret, however...or anonymous...are the people involved in this industrial dispute, for thats what it is, at it's own particular level, so the "secret rooms" smoke screen won't really apply, especially as many of the people involved aren't menbers of it.
Just people who gave selflessly, were stiffed and then ridiculed. Odd why they're complaining, really.
What secret room? This is the first I have heard of it.
I demand secret rooms for everybody.
just a thought. but would it not be better locking this thread and start talking music.
i'm not be-littling anyones cause for complaint. i know fvck all about what went on. i'm not saying people shouldn't complain when they feel hard done by.
but this tit-for-tat thread will go round and round until the inter-ma-net explodes. it's doing no one any good surely. think of the kids, please god*
* closing humour (possibly) should not detract from meaningful point trying to be expressed. where's bernard when you need him.
It [i]is[/i] unfortunate that it's going round, but that because it's never been dealt with, and in the long term I reckon this'll go on for ever until it is sorted.
We're talking about what was an important part of the scene.
Hell, even the Big Boys sat up and took notice and gave it an award to prove it.
We deserve the best mag possible to represent the state of music at home and beyond. We almost had it, and we sure haven't got anything like that now.
We've been through a lot of this before and as Ryan said, it's there for all to see on another thread if you're that interested/bored. Eight or nine pages of mud-slinging will do nobody any favours.
[quote]We deserve the best mag possible to represent the state of music at home and beyond. We almost had it, and we sure haven't got anything like that now.[/quote]
Eamonn, that's where I take exception and personal offence having presided over the editorial content of the last three issues. Especially when you've said elsewhere on this thread that you no longer buy the mag. I can only presume you've not actually sat and read the current issue?
If you have and still maintain the standard has slipped, then fair enough, that's your opinion, and of course you're entitled to it - biased or not. I'd just like to think and hope you're making those judgements based on your reading of the three issues in question.
For what it's worth, in my opinion, this current issue (and the previous one) are on a par with any of the first ten issues; and yes, I accept, I too am biased. But I'm not about to sit back and watch something myself and others have worked damn hard on disparaged continually.
Sure, a lot of talented folks walked after issue ten but their absence has opened the door for some other supremely talented people.
There's been an implication that the people who've contributed after issue ten aren't up to the job which is frankly laughable. Much as I hate to single individuals out - for there's been some @#%$ cracking efforts from all quarters - we've had contributions from writers such as Stuart Bailie, Paul McNamee and Everett True, whose calibre and professionalism is unquestionable. And that's before we even consider the stellar design work...
I still believe in this magazine and the possibilities it offers. There's no reason why it can't still be an integral part of this scene.
[quote]But I'm not about to sit back and watch something myself and others have worked damn hard on disparaged continually.[/quote]
I'd say that is the EXACT same reason why some of the comments made on this thread have been made.
Y'know, I felt that way once. The reflections on content are just people's personal opinion, and not really the thrust of the argument here. There are still very serious qustions that remain unanswered. Rightly or wrongly you are vouching for 26k of public money, which includes your editorial budget.
While it is admirable and right that you stand in front of the content, can you be sure of the entire organisation? Can you say, hand on heart, that things are being properly run, and that everything is in order? More importantly, can you field the questions that myself and others have? If this debate is to move on, those are the issues that have to be addressed.
[quote]But I'm not about to sit back and watch something myself and others have worked damn hard on disparaged [/quote]
Good, then you're understanding the basic elements in play here.
I've read each issue of the mag since #10, and I'm sorry to say that for me the original feel, the waft of [i]enfants terribles[/i]that was oft remarked on professionally, has departed.
Stu Bailie and Everett True are excellent writers,(to my mind Bailie is the best we have in N. Ireland), and obviously the best candidates one could pay to help in a rescue mission.
However, there's more to a magazine. There's an organic feel that characterises it, as anyone who remembers the [i]Sounds[/i] and [i]Melody Maker[/i] of the 70s will know, with the closest candidate today being [i]Mojo[/i].
AU had it, and doesn't have it now. The edginess has gone, and although it'll develop a new innate personality, it'll never be the same, with the loss of the more colourful and controversial elements.
It'd be interesting to see the comparative sales and circulation figures, pre #10 and post#10, but that'll be difficult seeing as the previous editor didn't even get to know them in the first place.
I'd imagine you'll keep working hard anyway, David, but even you will have to appreciate that you're there for one reason and one reason only...that the magazine exists at a ready made level created by other people who were denied a stake in the magazine they created and worked "damn hard for". And lightning sometimes does strike twice.
Edited by: Eamonn P Keyes at: 11/11/04 12:52 am
Let me put my position in context (yet again). I’m reminded of something Griswold said the first time this all kicked off on the issue 11 thread, because I could relate.
Basically, I was ‘in the dark’ as much as the next guy about the business side of things with AU up until the mass walkout and the subsequent online debacle. For issues zero through to ten, I didn’t know and I didn’t wanna know. I just helped out with whatever contributions I could. Then I got word there was a split. Nobody explained to me what had happened. As it happens, the first person who actually bothered to fill me in was Jonny. The first time I even knew of any dissent was when it was official that twenty plus contributors had walked. Was I supposed to walk too in support of something I had no clue about and nobody even thought I should’ve been made aware of as a long time contributor? As far as I could tell, my position remained the same so I saw no reason not to continue doing what I had for the past year and more.
Then I was asked to be the editor, and yes, I wasn’t born yesterday, I realise that was at a “ready made level” but I’d like to think I had a hand (however small) in building it to that level too, and I’d have been a fool to walk away from that opportunity.
As you well know Phil, and can gather from the context of my ‘promotion’, I’m not the guy who can answer your questions. Nobody ever told me, so how the hell could I?
Also, while the thrust of debate here wasn’t primarily focussed on the content, there were one or two negative allusions/implications creeping in that I felt the need to respond to because I genuinely feel that Alternative Ulster 13 is one of the strongest there has been.
In saying that, there's still work to be done, but we're on the right track. If you feel it’s not something you can support, then that’s a shame. Northern Ireland’s music scene without Alternative Ulster is a grim prospect, right?
I hope people will pick up a copy and make up their own minds.
Edited by: um david at: 11/11/04 1:52 am
David, I honestly didn't know whether you could answer my questions or not, if I did I wouldn't have asked. As it stands I have no idea who is on the AU board (given the resignations over the past couple of months), who is responsible for AU and the public funding it has received, who is taking the decisions, editorially or otherwise, and who is ultimately responsible for what areas of the magazine anymore. And as you can probably understand, I'm a wee bit curious.
As I see it, that the break up of Alternative Ulster was allowed to happen is damaging in the extreme to the Northern Ireland music scene. God knows I bent over backwards enough times to stop it from happening. The reason why there was no mass communication at the time was to allow an opportunity for things to be sorted it, and during this time people really did go above and beyond the call of duty to find a resolution, with no success whatsoever. In the aftermath some of the facts did trickle out. In this context it was down to people to decide whether they wanted to stay or not. But just as your loyalty is to the magazine as it stands today, mine had to be with those stood shoulder to shoulder with me to make AU work, and who followed me out the door (unprompted I might add) when I made the decision to leave.
I think from a career point of view you did the right thing, and I hope Jonny made you fully aware of what you were taking on. You're being paid a salary by the Arts Council to do a job of work, and I genuinely wish you the best with that. I know I have no truck with you personally, nor would I want to involve you in an argument that isn't of your making. But you can understand the seriousness of what is being asked here, and the issues over and above the content of the current AU that people want to see addressed.
I should stress that I don't to fall out with anyone over this, and see the current state of the magazine as a side issue. In that same spirit I too would encourage everyone to make up their own minds.
The Rikmandu feels thats colourmetickled is making a re-hash of old comments, and if his Aunite found out she would not be pleased.
[quote]As you well know Phil, and can gather from the context of my ‘promotion’, I’m not the guy who can answer your questions. Nobody ever told me, so how the hell could I? [/quote]
Surely you would find out as much as you could about a place of work before you took a job, particularly if you had heard bad reports about it?
Why the fu(k does every thread have to turn into some inane debate, which was started over some comments which were misinterpreted, and not aimed at who someone thought they were aimed at.
Step 1. Remove head from backside
Step 2. Have a nice day.
I know what u mean dazcraig.
Thread title " Alternative Ulster Issue 13"
5 pages of sh*te......
Its funny, tho I think the digresseration of many a thread is directly relaterated to the boredidity of some users!
Now THAT sounds like a GWB quote!!
Fu(k I am bored in this pissing job
[url="http://www.in-theory.net"]IN THEORY[/url] Edited by: mikey fusz at: 11/11/04 1:16 pm
[quote]comments which were misinterpreted, and not aimed at who someone thought they were aimed at.[/quote]
Wha? Are you saying the wee digs on the first page of this thread aren't aimed at the originator of this thread? I think epk has even admitted they were!
I'm also pretty startled that the most interesting and informative debate on this website for months (due to the input of P.Crossey, D.McLaughlin, and even aul' Colourmetickled) is described as "inane" and "five pages of sh1te".
Edited by: the dirty weed at: 11/11/04 1:28 pm
I don't think the 'digs' were obvious enough to warrent turning this thread into a warzone.
Alternative Ulster - what is it?
Sod this I'm getting out of work early, heading down Brixton and watching Yakuza.
Enjoy. My friend lives beside the Windmill and is a Dirty Stevie fan. You'll probably meet him....
Smitty, you're sure getting into the cosmopolitan melting pot: The Answer one week, Yakuza this week - it'll be a TPO tin-rattler in Kilburn next , I tells ya.
Edited by: T Entertainment at: 11/11/04 2:15 pm
Oh, for f*cks's sake, it was a joke for Smitty's benefit / largely at his expense.
Jesus, how sensitive can you be?
If anyone is [b]actually[/b] offended, I apologise. Sheesh. Edited by: T Entertainment at: 11/11/04 2:31 pm
Me? It has nothing to do with me. I just like the word 'Eejit. Chill. You sound like I went off on one on you. Relax Chistopher.
Glad to hear it... :)
I would just like to point out that "colourmetickled" or any of the other new names are none of our crew.
So please bare this in mind before following us to the Seamus Heeney Library and the bathroom and stuff.
People got screwed because they let themselves get screwed.
Stop sucking your mothers tit and grow up.
Who gets involved with something without doing the research.
[quote]People got screwed because they let themselves get screwed[/quote]
Aye.. well that wins the award for least understanding of the situation yet.
[quote]The Rikmandu feels thats colourmetickled is making a re-hash of old comments, and if his Aunite found out she would not be pleased[/quote]
never liked him
* edited to include wee winking smiley so as people would know i don't really hate rory and this post was just a wee joke.
ps - lock this thread please!
Edited by: nodancinginfo at: 11/11/04 4:06 pm
Nice try Rikmandu and Nodancinginfo (if those are your real names) I am not, nor never have been colourmetickled or any variation thereoff. Fun game though, its like cluedo. I reckon it was Devlin in the study? Murder weapon? Has to be that sense of humour...
too manys evvryone schpeaking in foerain langwiches.
Koll ze cuntstubbles.
Reely ve iz nice peeps.
I believe that when an arganisation is funded by public money, it should have a degree of public accountability. In this context, it surprising is how many people are willing to prevaricate on Alternative Ulster's behalf.
See "that" perks my interest a bit.
Too often people in the North treat public money simply like an extra tool of capital income in their personal business.
Pray, expand upon the lack of accountability...
Board, members, funding body - you know the drill.
with the often-attached "I don't really know all the details....but".
Do you watch "The Sopranos", Anto?
How much money are we talking about anyway?
Jesus the way my wastelines going this weather in a few months
[i]I'll[/i] be Fat Tony
I think the figure was £26k.
Who's the funding body?
Arts Council NI?
The funding was awarded after the success of the magazine, and
as part of the funding process a Board has to be set up.
That's where the story starts.
Phil'll provide the further details, i'm sure, as he was central at the time, being the award-winning Editor.
Just to provide a bit of extra info about the Arts Council award.
A total of £26'500 was awarded by the Arts Council, for 10 Issues of Alternative Ulster. This was then divided up (in accordance with the Arts Council) to specific areas.
In the area of Artistic Costs £6'000 was awarded for the area of Design and £4'500 for the area of Photography.
There was then a total of £16'000 awarded for salaries, which works out at £8'000 each for two full-time positions.
Alternative Ulster then agrees this budget, meaning that the grant can only be spent in these areas.
Therefore the award money is enirely accountable. Each payment has to have a claim form submitted, to include cheque numbers for each individual transaction and payment.
Aw, come on now.
"Public money" is spent by the bucket load, every minute of the day, on all sorts of random crap.
And we don't give it a second thought, cause, what's the point?
£26K is a drop in the ocean, especially as the mag was ran
for a year without any "public money".....
The "people have a right to know" argument doesn't wash, because....well they don't. Or at least certainly not on this forum by people who had LITTLE OR NOTHING to do with the running of the mag. People who have in the past, posted sarcastic messages on private boards dissing anyone who has the audacity to do something they don't agree with.
Iona and Phil are the only people who have any right to reply and even then, there's a lot to be said for just letting it lie and getting on with your life.
Anyway, seriously, i don't know why this thread hasn't been locked. Although when the founder of this board has lowered himself to snide little digs, i guess i shouldn't be surprised that it's been allowed to run. Edited by: colourmetickled at: 11/11/04 5:59 pm
[quote]iona and phil are the only people who have any right to reply[/quote]
I'm curious as to why you keep saying that.
Do you not think anyone else was involved or affected?
So if the Arts Council are paying a grant surely that gives [i]them[/i] a say over who is involved in running the mag, which is what this whole argument started over....?
Organisations that receive funding from arts council are still independent of the arts council - it is an organisation's board that makes decisions on how they staff their organisation.
The money can be flushed down the loo for all I care. The spirit behind the project was invaluable.
The thing that most píssed me off in this whole saga is that a number of my friends were shafted bigstyle.
To quote a poet:
"[i]I have never made any secret of the reasons why I left, though haven’t discussed them publicly. I don’t know if now is the time or not, but I do know a lot of people have been hurt and angered by how they have been treated by Alternative Ulster, and they want it out in the open. Certainly, the lack of a public discussion seems to have led to some confusion. Personally, I left because I could no longer be part of an organization that had no regard for transparency, accountability and professionalism, especially when it was about to receive public money. I could no longer be part of the board, which was dominated by four members of the same family, and had no media expertise. I could no longer encourage people to contribute to something which was a ‘vanity project’ (the words of several key contributors, not me). I could no longer watch as people put in long hours for no money, and in some cases slowly went broke while resources were ploughed into other areas. And I could no longer stand by as a form of exploitation was happening, and in several cases that’s exactly what it was.[/i] - Phil Crossey Edited by: Eamonn Evangelists at: 11/11/04 6:15 pm
Has anyone got the new tommy tiernan DVD? I tried HMV but they don't have it. Would order it on-line but can be bothered waiting. Anyway, if you do i will swop / buy / lend it from you.
Try the classifieds section.
Jimmy, you may be able to by the DVD at the belfast gig at the waterfront. Would i be right in saying it's on the 3rd december?
Yes, I keep wondering why the Palestinians, the East Timorians and the Tibetans just don't get over it and get on with their lives.
I mean, injustice has [i]such[/i] a short shelf life. Edited by: Eamonn P Keyes at: 11/11/04 6:21 pm
I'm coming at this from a fairly dispassionate point of view and all I can say is that if it is going to be mentioned here at all then the full facts should be disclosed as they are.
you can get it in HMV. Almost bought it, but i've seen him do that exact set a couple of times and it was the same both times, so i bought the Big Train double DVD instead.
Big Train is the feckin stupidest programme i've ever seen in my life.
i love it!
is he one of the board members?
Exactly,Anto...and preferably by those most involved, as colurmetickled says.
Ruling out columnists, regular contributors, sub-editors and design staff, who weren't really involved , and had little to do with the mag and the award.
Apparently. Edited by: Eamonn P Keyes at: 11/11/04 6:25 pm
Just the Facts, M'am, Just the Facts....
What [i]exactly[/i] do you want to know?
The entire, unabridged chronological history?
Now that [i]would[/i] be illuminating.
Also, there is an insinuation here that what happened was just another tough call that one has to make in the heady topsy-turvy werld of media publishing.
It didn't happen that way and I for one am happy to disclose any and all facts to those who want an explanation.
Yes, but you weren't really involved.....it seems.
[quote]had LITTLE OR NOTHING to do with the running of the mag[/quote]
[quote]the running of the mag[/quote]
the running of the mag
What are you getting at? Edited by: Nana Karina at: 11/11/04 7:22 pm
are you serious?!
what i am, erm, getting at, in my own, cryptic way (?!) is....
there's a difference between contributing to a magazine and setting it up/publishing it/financing it/RUNNING IT
sure you go set up and run a mag with no writers, editors, designers, photographers...
I've just noticed someone logged in as 'farcefude'.
There certainly is a difference.
There's also a difference between running it responsibly and running it , well, irresponsibly.
In every enterprise and in all fields of work those at the helm have a (here's that word again) [b]responsibility[/b] to represent, in this case, the magazine and it's staff in a fashion which is (one more time) [b]RESPONSIBLE[/b].
If you disagree with that then your faculties are damaged beyond repair, sir.
Can we PLEASE get back to the subject of masturbation? It is much more interesting.
If only I had of slagged off all the c*nts I used to work for and treated me unfairly and screwed me over up until now I'd feel a lot better.
GET THEM IN THE LONG GRASS.
It worked for me.
And I kept it quiet.
Edited by: Gripper Magee at: 11/11/04 10:27 pm
But there's nothing like an ex flatmate sticking the boot into another ex flatmate on a public forum.
Fastfude needs more of this kind of thing.
Masturbation is for w*nkers.
Going into the entire Alternative Ulster story could run to book length, though I suppose it should be told at some stage…
In response to the question of board membership, originally it stood at Jonny Tiernan, Myself, Iona Bateman, Peter Pratt, Matthew Tiernan, Charlie McKeown. It was chaired by Cathy Wright.
Joanne Tiernan was apparently an original board member, and there was some debate about whether she was actually an official member or not when she turned up at the second board meeting.
Myself and Iona resigned after this meeting. I believe Peter Pratt has subsequently resigned too.
I’m loathe to talk on Peter’s behalf, but as the person who signed/verified the arts council application it is significant if he has resigned.
Talking of the application, one of my major concerns was that included in this was the official accounts for the first twelve months of Alternative Ulster. These were supposed to show that the organization was financially above board, and capable on an administrative level of handling Arts Council funding. When myself and Iona asked for these accounts, and the associated paperwork, they weren’t forthcoming. Even as board members we weren’t shown the full accounts. Given that this was the financial statement of how the magazine had been operating for the first year, and the one document that would have shown why we were getting paid so little, we were keen to see it.
Could I say hand on heart that they were above board? No
Was I going to put myself in a position where I would be legally accountable for the financial dealings of Alternative Ulster? Nope
Now, maybe they were okay, but the level of secrecy around them made me nervous. As one of the few people, along with Iona, who would’ve been able to point to something as being wrong, it felt like we were being excluded for a reason - especially in light of us trying to put our request in reasonable terms on several occasions.
I’m not sure if a third board meeting has taken place.
I'm sure things have changed with regard to board composition since I left, and maybe someone connected with the magazine can put me right on what the situation is at present.
In many ways this is separate from the issue of people being shafted, but it was a prime example of how things seemed to be going in Alternative Ulster. On the one hand we were told sales were great, on the other there was no money to pay anyone. Of course, sales weren't great, struggling to reach 500 I've been told, but that wasn't the point. People would have slogged their guts out for no money because they believed in the product. Once the felt they were being hoodwinked there was no way back.
And colourmetickled, can I have the lend of 26 grand?
Although I do not want to take any part in this argument, I'm aware of what happened with Alternative Ulster, and I couldn't give a shnit.
I'd just like to congratulate Roger on his wonderful post, I commend his brain.
It's a shame alright, the way things happened.
But before I’m branded a complete scumbag for saying what I have, I'd like to make a couple of longwinded, badly made points.
Was £26K (all things considered, that's a very small amount of money by the way) going to make a big difference? I don't even see how £26K could run the office, the computers, the printing costs etc of the magazine for a year, let alone pay even one minimum wage salary.
If Johnny Tiernan was running about in a Bentley I'd understand any bitter references to finance. But I doubt he's made a penny from this mag, all things considered.
And Johnny Tiernan set up this mag from scratch, right?
He's the only person who truly put everything on the line. It doesn't give him the right to treat people badly, but it does give him the right to make the calls, even if you argue they were poor ones and he was wrong to keep people in the dark.
What stinks though, is how it's been dealt with since, mostly by other people. I really don't understand how anyone can justify the continued attempts to completely destroy the reputation of Johnny and this magazine.
Some of you (not really Phil or Iona, who’ve both kept things on a professional level, although it would have been really
good if they‘d been able to avoid being forced to air their dirty linen in public) get on like nothing would make you happier than hearing about the demise of the magazine. That sucks. The magazine is still on the shelves, it's still looking good and it's still full of local acts getting great coverage. A good thing, surely?
The founder and the moderators leading the way, on a public message board, populated by people only on it cause they're part of the band-scene here, who don't know about the politics of that magazine, who don't need to know and who probably don't give a f**k. In fact, this debate only isolates them and confirms their illusion that only a certain little in-crowd (*once again, I remind you some of these people have had a private forum created in the past for backslapping/mud slinging/ego inflating*) know what's "really going on."
Such a shame this was ever discussed on here in the first place, in that thread a few weeks back. Nobody comes out of this looking well, far from it. Everyone's reputation is tarnished now.
Still though, those captions really quite clever and, yeah, pretty funny....
Edited by: colourmetickled at: 12/11/04 10:34 am
Seriosuly, this thread should be completely deleted and we should try to avoid making any references to the whole thing in the future.
It really doesn't matter who can justify their statements the most, or who wins any argument, who's right or who's wrong in whoever's eyes.... we all look really, really stupid for having the discussion here in the first place.
The whole thing is very embaressing and no one has anything to gain from this thread.
delete delete delete delete Edited by: colourmetickled at: 12/11/04 10:37 am
After working for over a year for virtually no wages would you leave right when 26k was on the table without a damn good reason?
It's hard for me to express my own reasons for leaving AU apart from what Phil has already said, but surely that should be an indication of just how bad the situation had become. For all those who say they don't give a toss, I hope you never find yourselves in a similar situation, and I hope no one rains such apathetic comments down on you.
its a magazine
[quote]Seriosuly, this thread should be completely deleted and we should try to avoid making any references to the whole thing in the future. [/quote]
If AU truly has nothing to hide and can justify everything that happened then why on earth is an [b]anonymous[/b] poster making ridiculous statements like this? I have no desire to become embroiled in a petty debate about the whole thing but that statement by someone too chicken to even prove their identity is indicative of how we got into this mess in the first place. It's obvious that you not only work for AU but also know us personally, what exactly are you afraid of?
The 26k is entirely for salaries, so people should be getting paid.
It’s also the biggest grant the Arts Council has ever given a magazine. It is, in any context, a huge amount of money. And it’s public money, so having a lack of respect for it just isn’t an option. In fact, it’s downright dangerous. It’s a privilege for an organisation to get that amount of money, not a God given right. There are arts organisations who would do anything for 26 grand, and to see a lack of humility around it is incredibly unsettling.
By your reckoning, and I think I see where this is coming from, the money should be used on things like rent, equipment and the like, because Alternative Ulster needs those sorts of things before it needs human resources. This is the kind of attitude that makes my blood boil, and constantly did during my time with the magazine. People are ALWAYS the most valuable asset an organisation can have. The cargo culture of a nice office, fancy computers and glossy, high cost paper is a fallacy. But hey, let them eat cake.
The same consumerist attitude extends toward this image of Jonny Tiernan running around in a Bentley. Again, this is missing the point, if the world has to be presented in such black and white terms you’re never going to see the subtle details.
Thankfully, the Arts Council decreed that the money cannot be used for such things, it has to be, rightly, used to pay people for their contribution. Now, who decides how these people are paid and how much they get? Who decides whether someone is worth shelling out on or not? Who decides if it is being used in a nepotistic fashion? Who can say if it is being flushed down the toilet?
At the first board meeting Iona was told that there was no money for her. In public. In front of other people. It was the first of it she'd heard. Later altercations, which I can go into detail about here if you like, were basically harassment. I know, because I've had to deal with the aftermath. This is the same Iona who watched Jonny sell magazines and put the money in his pocket while she was going hungry. Who saw that AU had a 'vehicle maintenance' budget, and yet no actual company vehicles. Who saw Jonny had put down his mobile phone as a business cost. Yet when both myself and her asked to see the paper trail...
I subsequently offered to take a pay cut in the editor's salary if there'd be money there for Iona, because that would only have been fair in my opinion, because without Iona there wouldn’t have been a magazine.
Talk of ‘secret forums’ is a smokescreen as well, and ironic from someone who is anonymous. The real secret forum here is the one in charge of 26k, I for one would like to know what they’re up to, and given your zeal on such matters I hope you will join me in asking.
Out of curiosity, are you going to reveal yourself, or are you going to stay anonymous? because it seems you are quite clued in about Alternative Ulster. I get the feeling your posts are being sectioned by a higher authority, if this is the case, it'd be nice if you let us know. Maybe you're on the AU board? Either way, you seem to have a vested interest, so for the sake of transparency it's only fair that you come clean.
And you can't ask for a thread to be closed after you've made so many points that need to be addressed. In fact, if you look back there are quite a few that remain unanswered. Maybe if you stopped returning to the same points and addressed some of the other ones we’d all get home quicker.
And you’re not a scumbag, you’ve just been fed a lie.
Just my tuppence.
Please oh please oh f**king please stop the constant yapping over not getting paid. So what. Everyone (contributors) knew they weren't.
At the time, the general excitement of seeing your work in print seemed to be a big enough incentive for most to continue (and rightly so) and now it's not?
How many bands get paid to hump their gear around and play to an empty room?
Is this your job?
I appreciate it's a different matter if you were 'staff' and it's a [b]huge[/b] undertaking for everyone involved but DRY YOUR F**KING EYES. Noone at the time thought the mag would reach quite the dizzying heights of awards and grants that it did through everyone's hard work (though we all dreamt about it) but it did.
And now it's more than a 'project' and as such has had to shift focus to include business issues which seem to have been handled albeit in a dubious and perhaps dishonourable way but such is life.
If anything the experience should have strengthened resolve.
Let's just agree to disagree and please don't waste your time taking exception to me.
Take it on the chin and make your guard higher next time.
ColourMeTickled I ask you: